1380 T2, MPI?
Turbo Mini Forums

Hi,
I'm going to turbo my 1380 with a mirage setup, MG n/a cam, as you probably already know
I've got a complete MPI engine and box, 2 looms, ecu, alarm etc. I'm very interested in the injection setup, as I believe it will give me good off boost economy, and spot on fuelling for boost too, I'm going to run 10psi max.
So finally to the question,shall I bore out the MPI to 1380 and use that as a base, with the MPI cam and sensor? Or would I be better off with the A+ I'm using now? Will the MPI injectors be able to provide enough fuel?
Cheers,
Gavin :)

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It is all down to how you are going to do it, for a start the Rover ECU will not sense boost pressure, so how are you going to get the fuelling right on boost?

Hi,
Tom ... not going to use the Rover ECU, as It's no good as you say, got to be the MS system.
I'm pondering on the fact that (I imagine) the MPi cam would be best suited for the injection system?
The cam sensor already installed could be used for the MS system?
And if the injectors would provide enough fuel for a 10psi 1380? (Edit: Dave's reseach says upto 180 BHP, that'll do nicely)
Cheers,
Gavin :)

Edited by Bat on 24th May, 2006.

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EDIT CORRECTION - Daves research is with four injectors and 5-bar fuel rail...

Cam sensor is no use on MS.

Personally - I'd try something different, blowing the Mpi as is - and plumbing in some extra injectors that take a signal from the original injectors (but via a controller) to bring in more fuel. Something like the M3D should do it - or maybe a unit from Dysys controlls.

If you go with the piggyback solution that Dave proposed, you could also use MS with the MS1/extra code. You just need a tach signal to the MS and the sensors signals. As long as the additional injectors are located close to the throttle body so that both ports are fed by the additional fuel then you won't have to worry about the injection timing.

With that, you will also be able to upgrade to MS2 when the siamese port code is ready and let it control all fuel and ignition. However, you will then need to add a missing tooth wheel and VR sensor because the code won't be able to use the MPi reluctor wheel.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Great suggestion Jean!

Hi,
This sounds like an excellent idea!
How do you think the standard ECU will cope with the 1380 capacity off boost?
Will it compensate off the MAP sensor? Presumably I'll need another MAP sensor for the MS.... (Say 2bar)
Will I be able to pick up the tach feed via the diodes on the coil pack setup?
For temp sensor I can tee off the original....

I've got some Cossie yellows and Some Vauxhall Ecotec (Purple?) injectors with the twin spray... any ideas which would be best?

I'm running a bigger pump already as I've got an estate, what about a pressure reg for my extra injectors?

What's the pros and cons for running the extra injectors above the butterfly, as I would have to make something to replace the air filter housing, so could I house them there?

Thanks guys, this has got me fired up now!

Just had a thought.... Whats going to retard my timing on boost? :(
Verto clutch, and a turbo
Cheers,
Gavin :)

Edited by Bat on 25th May, 2006.

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Hi,
Ok, done a quick look round.....
MS has a MAP sensor built in. 8)

I could get Tom to machine my MPI pulley and use EDIS and MS to control ignition. 8)

DAVE... Will your new clutch use the verto part with the MPI toothed wheel on ? If not can the MPI toothed ring be transfered to a non verto flywheel?
Will a 3bar reg be OK?
Cheers,
Gavin :)

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http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=5834

Hi,
Thanks Vegard. :) I'm liking the piggy back idea even more now, as it's not going to cost me £1300!
The only problem I see so far (with the plan above) is the clutch.... Going to the garage now to take a look at the MPI flywheel.......
Cheers,
Gavin :)

Edited by Bat on 26th May, 2006.

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Hi,
Update......
Toothed wheel (PSE100290) not listed on the net. I couldn't see how it was attached through the starter hole, but the SPI one is bolted on the the back of the flywheel. As the MPI one has the part number stamped on it, I imagine this will do the same.

@ Dave / Jean .... If the MPI cam sensor is no good for MS, will I become unstuck when I want to use the siamese code, I presume that's fully sequencial?
Cheers,
Gavin :)

Edited by Bat on 26th May, 2006.

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Actually the first version will not require a cam sensor because it is semi-sequential. As long as you have a crank mounted wheel with a single gap you should be good.

If you look at Marcel's web pages, you'll see that you can get by with a single injection event per rev. This means that you time the injection pulses only for the outer cylinders since the inner cylinders will take whatever fuel was injected when all intake valves were closed.

I'm planning to do a later version which will be fully sequential and will then require a cam sensor but it will also require additional injector drivers. Unless there are unforeseen problems with the semi-sequential version, there are probably more interesting features that will be implented first.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Jean,

So if I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that if you inject once per rev, with the start of the injection event corresponding with the closing of the inner cylinder inlet valve, then we do not need to use the advance table as previously discussed?

Is this not possible to test with the existing megasquirt code?

This is what TD had to say about this a while ago:

"Hovever - there is a possibility, that (when firing every 360 degrees) something nasty might happen - especially if the injectors are close to the head (which is what we want)...

Think about the inside valve now... The injector for this 'cylinder' starts firing at 150 degrees Before TDC on the inlet stroke! ALL the large amount of fuel is being sprayed into a 'closed' inlet port. This isn't a problem normally - but it is highly likely, that some of the fuel will venture down the port - and when it meets the divider, will split nicely - some resting on top of the inside valve (fine) but crucially, some might rest on top of the outside valve.

Oh a nat-asp, this 'excess' might simply be able to be 'sucked' off the outside valve, and into the inside cylinder. In Forced-induction however; very, very unlikely... "

Edited by Paul S on 26th May, 2006.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Actually, we still need some timing information that will be dependent on location of the injector(s), injector characteristics, and the engine configuration but it might be a single value instead of a table. This will have to tested in a real world situation.

I agree that there will be some effect but I'm not sure that it will be as bad as described above. As long as fuel puddling is not excessive, I don't think it will be an issue. As for the effect being different for NA and turbo engine, aside for the amount of fuel, I don't see why that would be.

A case might actually be made for the opposite effect of what Dave is suggesting if you consider X-Tau because the inner cylinders will be filled with a mixture that will have had more time to evaporate the fuel wetting the intake port.

But this is all speculation and it needs to be tested in the real world. If there really is a problem then the potential solution to go to full sequential has already been thought of and could be implemented with a higher priority. If it's not an issue then we have a simpler and cheaper solution and we can concentrate on other features and later implement the "ideal" solution.

I'm ready to switch priorities if people think that I'm completely off track but I'll need more than conjecture. At the moment, I think that my assumptions are as good as anyone else's but I'm very open to everyone's ideas.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

How far off are we from testing this?

I'm a couple of months away from getting my NA 1275 on the road. The sole reason for this is to develope the MS system so that I can apply it to my 998 turbo.

I've just bought a standard MPI inlet with injectors, throttle body etc. I've got lambda bossses to go on each leg of the LCB and the Y piece, 3 in all, and am planning on getting some AFR meters. I've got the toothed wheel and water temp sensor fitted. Could I use this to test out this solution?

I would also like to be able to use the MS for spark, in case you were thinking about using the ignition advance table for the injection advance.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

I'm finishing assembly of the v3 MS board with MS2 so I'll soon be full on developing the code but I wouldn't count on it being ready before a month or two because I want to make sure it is well bench tested before going on an engine.

Your setup seems perfect for testing the code. Does the MPi inlet also have an intake air temp sensor? The code will have full ignition support. The injection timing will have a seperate table.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Yep the inlet has the standard Rover intake air temp sensor.

I've also got a spare Bosch NTC M12-L 2500 ohm one as well.

Engine and front subframe sit in my workshop ready to go back in the car. It'll take me a couple of months to get it MOTd and on the road using a carb and dizzy. So hopefully sometime during August we can give it a whirl.

Great.

Edited by Paul S on 26th May, 2006.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Hi,
I'm feeling a bit thread jacked here.....
But I don't care as it looks (so far) That this may be sorted by the time I come to put my engine in anyway. :)

Jean ..... Do you think we will run into a problem with too small an injection window once we start putting boost in there?
Cheers,
Gavin :)

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Please accept my humble apologies for thread jacking.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Hi,
Axel, as I said above, I don't care 'cause....
1) It answered some of my questions 8)
2) It's good to see the EFI project coming along so well. 8)
3) You'll be ready for testing, when Jean gets the code sorted, If you were relying on me it'd be Christmas at the earliest!
So I'm 8) too!
Cheers,
Gavin :)

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Hi,
Thanks Jean, that's great. I'm 'only' going to run 10PSI on my 1380, do you think I'll get away with one extra injector or will I need 2? (mounted just above the throttle body)
I've got 4 standard Cosworth (2.0l 4 cyl 220bhp) injectors in 'stock' I was planning on using those......
Cheers,
Gavin :)

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Bat,

For 1bar of boost, you need 100% more fuel (approx)

At 10psi you're asking for 70% more fuel than what you currently get out of your two injectors rated at 460(ish)cc/min injectors.
One extra injector is not going to cut it.

If you want a VERY interesting and relativly easy solution, then get another MPi inlet. Cut it off just after the injector bosses. Now, weld this short piece onto the front of your current manifold.
Hey-presto - a double fuel rail!

Sure - you might need to shorten the manifold with a bit more cutting and shutting - but that is basically what you need to do - DOUBLE up on the current injectors...

Cossie yellows are antiquated crap. Put them on ebay and forget about them.

Hi,
Thanks for the reply Dave, I'll keep them in case I need to put them back on the car they came off
I like the double bubble idea, will this cause me any distribution issues on my piggy MS system?
Cheers,
Gavin :)

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I'm going to stick with the two MPi injectors for my NA trial.

For turbo use, i was thinking about getting some ally glue in bosses and drill four big holes in the back of the standard turbo inlet manifold. It looks like there's enough room and metal to get two injectors side by side pointing straight into the port. If you put them in at about 30 degrees from the vertical, there's room for a fuel rail across the top.

Add a throttle body and plenum and Bob's your mothers brothers uncle.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."