Fuel injection.. emeralds example
Turbo Mini Forums

as sene here http://www.emeraldm3d.com/em_projects_Aseries.html

opinions?!? Realy drawn to the idea of injection due to control-ability and economy over the traditional carb setup, but the whole issue with siamesed ports skared me off.

Recon this kind of setup would actually do what it says and basically simulate an accurately controlled SU?

Not particularly bothered about outright power, so single barrel throttle body would suit me fine! My car is a daily driver however, and fuel economy and low down torque matter.

turbo 16v k-series 11.9@118.9 :)

Denis O'Brien.

I run emeralds ECU on my mini turbo, I spoke to them about this, they don't you will get enough fuel from it to work on a turbo mini, but they are willing to give it a try with no promises

Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing

wel i dont se why bigger injectors cant be used, its not liek direct port injection where the pulses bust be very very precisely controlled, i meen the injector is a good bit up the inlet tract.

If i was to go this route, id modify a HIF44 for the throttle body, and use the megasquirt ECU, as money matters. and i enjoy the chalange of building stuff. So geting emerald to do it isnt an option

What im basically wwondering is whether with this setup the port robbing and such which will be worse than with a HIF44. if not(dont see why not), seems like a valid alternative.

turbo 16v k-series 11.9@118.9 :)

Denis O'Brien.

Emerald did tey injecting turbo a series before, but it made bad power. TurboDave is the boy to speak to on this.

Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing

I am planning on putting a mega squirt&spark on my turbo. I have most of the kit together at the moment. The ignition side should be fitted to my non turbo soon and then transfered to the turbo when i have the hang of it. Then a full ignition and injection will be fitted to a hilman imp engine for testing. They are 8 port heads so it will be easier. After this is working the turbo will be injected.

As far as I understand fitting a single injector will work OK, but not give that much more power than the HIF44 and the port robbing will be about the same. That said a injection system set correctly will be better than a HIF and should improve economy and throttle response.

I am looking towards a 7 port head and 4 injectors which will solve all port robbing problems. This could turn out a bit expensive though.

Read this for a bit more info:

http://www.planet.eon.net/~chichm/efi/siamese.htm

Ben

http://www.twin-turbo.co.uk
http://www.hillclimbandsprint.co.uk/default.asp

A man without a project is like a like a woman without a shopping list.

Bigger injectors? How big, and how to accurately control at tickover?
You'll have to do a lot to get megasquirt to fire the injectors where you want, and have the injector firing point shift wrt RPM.
Why use a HIF body? A complete throttle body off a small engined modern car will do the job, and come with a throttle pot ready mounted to the spindle...
In short, i can guarantee you will spend a lot of money, time and heartache with the risk of cooking your engine due to charge stealing, and (more than likely) still not have a satisfactory solution.
But, we need people to just get on and try differnt things, so any assistance you want, you'll get from me without fail...

reason for the hif body was a simple one, iv got plenty siting around and they bolt straight on.

the point i was trying to get at was that with an SPI system like this, with the injector so far up the inlet tract, it should jsut act like an electronic carb, port robbing would be no worse than with a carb, it should provide beter economy than a carb, tho not much (if atall) in the way of a power gain. i think :)

turbodave, iv followed alot of your injection posts on various forums with great interest.. And read up on the siamese issues with direct port injection, just wondered if this was a (to good to be true) way around the problem for a humble setup..

just concerned because the 1380, even in NA form drinks a fair bit if fuel when you give it some stick.

Edited by evolotion on 9th Mar, 2004.

turbo 16v k-series 11.9@118.9 :)

Denis O'Brien.

What you need to consider is not the length of the inlet tract, but the fact that you are injecting fuel at a point that might not be the optimum for the engine at the particular instance. I believe this is further complicated with a forced induction engine as the port effectivly increases efficiency wrt manifold pressure, so might need two maps - one correcting the injection event for rpm, the other then correcting the rpm event for manifold pressure...

Above all, remember a carb only ever supplies fuel on demand, hence varies the 'injection event' according to port velocity (and hence RPM). If you can get the electronics to replicate this, as with the Rover MPi, you're onto a winner...

well, injecting a high powered A serie, ouarf!!, good luck,
about the megasquirt , it is a batch injecting thing, so you'll put the fuell for the 3 and 4 cylinder in the same port at the same time?
and about the injectors size, you'll need a very big injector with a lot of compliance , ie from short injection time and little flow( this mean no fuell atomisation) to very short time and high flow and this 2 times more than the other cars, well you'll have to use two injectors for one port ,this a with very acurate time reference data (the best could be the valve closing time less 5 ? for exemple, ie no manufacturer are making these sort of system, you'll have to invent it yourself) and use a small duration cam, so all of this for less power more consuption and less drivability than the old very good hif44.
if it this not convice you, Ducati can't do this without running three injectors for one cylinder with one in the trumpet.... and still try to improve this ; Susuki use two butterflys for one port with one controled by a servo to help atomising the fuell at low injector flow , and we have two ports with four valves and four cylinder ( which need six injectors for one port in sequential manners ;one serie of injectors with a boost and rpm reference time, and injection time reference at the end of the valve opening.......)
sorry , but the only way that I found to inject a turbo aserie is four inlet ports.

argh, no fab ur missing the point i was trying to make.. i dont want to go down the route of direct port injection as i know the issues that surround this, basically i wanted to make an electric carb (for want of a beter description!)

Tho as pointed out i handnt thought of the fact that the carb only supplies what fuel its asked for, so wil handle the weird pulses pretty well.. Basically i wanted to make something similar to the SPi mini setup, but a little beter flowing.

Anyways its al pie in the sky justnow, jsut got the idea after seing the emerald setup.

turbo 16v k-series 11.9@118.9 :)

Denis O'Brien.

Soory; i had read this thread slightly too fast :),
made confusion between many post ,the megasquirt ecu, didn't read that ben wanted to take 7 port way,
about your set up, I'll make a more minded post tomorrow ( busy this evening)
regards
fab

if you stick mapped ignition on there, your part throttle (cruise) economy, power, drivability, and acceleration will ALL imporve greatly - so long as it's set up right!!!

This is a good halfway solution... I would never go back to a dizzy - or at least one that i can't retard under boost, such that i can run plenty of advance at high speed, under no load...

I totally agree. Putting mapped ignition on gives the best benifit although unlikely to increase top end power it will certainly give a much flatter torque curve, off boost power and throttle response will also be much improved. Myself I am not bothered about economy as the turbo is a race car that only does 3mpg anyway. But it will increase mpg.

So far all the kit for the megasquirt&edis system that I am about to fit has cost ?100, pretty good for a fully mapped ignition system that can be used for injection at a later date. I do quite fancy trying my NA mini with 2 injectors. This will need some changes to the megasquirt code, but I reckon this will not be to hard.

http://www.twin-turbo.co.uk
http://www.hillclimbandsprint.co.uk/default.asp

A man without a project is like a like a woman without a shopping list.

More food for thought

Cheers.

turbo 16v k-series 11.9@118.9 :)

Denis O'Brien.

I would have a go with two injectors, one small primary and a larger secondary, this would help in getting enough fuel in at high rpm, but still have good atomisation at low rpm, as ISTR you can control the injectors independently. I'll be using the emerald system on my justy/ and rx 7 turbo engines

Edited by PaulM on 11th Mar, 2004.

9 valves, 4 wheel drive, 3 cylinders, 1 turbo, which got nicked

As dave said , I would also prefering to go with an hif44 and lightening my pockets to buy a programable ignition, I like a lot Jim's emerald system, and I have bought one for a friend (but didn't have the time yet to install it yet); the contact with Dave Walker at Emerald was very good and the system was rapidly delivered here in France. I will also use one for my new turbo mini

cheers

Check this out http://www.onlineshowoff.com/index.asp?sec...rname=miniturbo

There's some pictures of the engine hes installing with injection.

Phil.

WWW.TURBO-MINI.COM

http://www.minipark.net/html/car-3429.html

And here....

http://www.minipark.net/car_image.html?thi...%5CBild+080.jpg

(massive picture - bandwidth beware!!!!)

that is one SMART car... I'm guessing he doesn't know about this site yet???