Injection and remote turbo use
Turbo Mini Forums

Hi,

Just looking for a bit of a help with my proposed plan for the minis engine build. Hopefully you can get a grasp of my ramblings.
Reading through a previous SC injection thread (http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=448257&fr=50 That one specifically) Its more raised a few questions than what I was originally searching for. Some of the dead photo-bucket links would be good to see if its needed too.
So break it down into a few smaller chunks.


I was searching for information about the plenum chambers required for the specialist components injection set-ups, Mostly because SC only list a stub for use with a turbo set up and noted than Wil has gone without on his 998.
Just in my mind to understand why? Is it because the cylinders will be drawing from the the intercooler pipes which (obviously) has a fill of air? where the metro original only had the short gonzo nozzle to draw from? and pressure equaliser for the turbo carb?
Will being at a larger capacity than the 998 Wil used be an issue?


The more rambly part...
I'll be using a GT20 turbo, on a Matty remote manifold (sat over the clutch housing) such as... https://www.facebook.com/fusionfabs/photos/...?type=3&theater
The aim of which is to produce up to and over 200bhp. I'll be using water methanol injection set up to reduce det-risk and switchable boost levels, providing the SC set-up allows for it (really still quite a bit of research to do with their options)

The question being, notably a lot of the last topic I read was regarding the ARF results. Due to the remote manifold design I intend to use, it'll be a lot simpler for me to plumb in a duel wide band set-up compared to the conventional manifold set up we mostly see on turbo minis. Will EGT's still be too high do plumb directly further down stream before the 3 branches merge? or will it be 100% necessary to use the sample chambers as I saw in the last thread?

So say if I were to have the wide bands in place either by direct or by sample, if I encounter a problem with them Vs the center cylinders, whats the best way of navigating the issue? and here's where my knowledge limitations show, especially in the wet-manifold set ups... Can the injection sequence be modified to provide more fuel for for the outer 2 cylinder draws?
I'd hate to get everything running, wiring routed, parts bolted on and then realise It's just no good for what i want.


Another key point of the thread, was the question, can the SC kit and injectors even provide enough fuel for 200bhp? boost levels dependent of course, and I see no option of injector sizes on the SC shop.

Look forward to hearing your opinions, experiences and knowledge.


Dave.

Edited by mini93 on 31st Dec, 2015.

David.

I don't think you need a plenum with injection as you don't need to create a pressure difference as the fuel is injected.

What is with the fixation on the SC system? Do you already own one?

Jonny, I get that bit, the only thing that stirred my question was how most other (more modern) cars still use a plenum, although i recognise its normally down to pressure across inlets


And its not so much a fixation on the system at all. I certainly don't intend to buy one if its going to be no good for use.

It's a well packaged kit which has potential to do most things for most people, however I'm aware I'm possibly asking too much of it with what I want.

So you might go ahead and say jump straight into the mega squirt set ups, my only reasoning not immediately go that direction is it requires construction of different components, and although I can do simple circuit construction and fault finding, the very brief bit I read about the mega squirt ecus it a while back, flew straight over my head.
Even the ARF sample tubes baffled me till I read about in the last thread (and now they seem kind simple...)
(and to show my lazy side) there's a lot on the mega-squirt subject across multiple threads, it seems deep!

David.

I personnelly thought the SC wet manifold system worked very well on a NA engine. I wouldn't have a problem running one again with boost, even though it's not injecting direct port. If I ever did go back to a 5 port it would be my first choice for fueling.

Just bare in mind, it's a slightly comprised solution. I wouldnt bother building sample tubes and running 2 widebands. You can't change anything anyway. just run it at maybe 11-11.5 AFR on full boost to safe guard about difference any variation between the cylinders. I'd monitor EGT though.

The only other problem, is idle mapping. You need to open the throttle slightly more than needed, then retard Igntion advance to control the Idle Speed to a target speed depending on water temp. A IACV is something on would build into the system to support cold starts and reduce risk of stalling if I was doing it again

All that said, the SC will support about 140bhp, using the 2 440cc injectors. The injectors are effectively fire twice the rate of a normal injectors, so the duty cycle is still quite high. For your setup, space permitting, id run a secondary bank of injectors before the butterfly, phased in at WOT and boost.

Edited by alaskanow0 on 22nd Dec, 2015.

Class C 3rd Place Avon 2011 14.18 @101mph

You don't need a plenum as you only have one TB effectively working as a carb.

You'd need a plenum if you had a port and injector per cylinder.

The problem I had with the SC kit was trying to use MS1 with it. Using the SC ECU works much better.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

www.twin-turbo.co.uk

I don't want to be hater but I will just say I never found the sc system that good.

Yes it was plug and play interms of the wiring loom, but I found it difficult to tune and no I didn't tune the car, it was at the rolling road operators on a number of occasions, including our very own sprocket having a look for me. It did some very strange things to my base timing map.
So my biggest advice is if you go that route speak to SC about your chosen application, and either get them to tune it, or someone the recommend.

Edited by gr4h4m on 22nd Dec, 2015.

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

Graham, did the Ecu brand swap sort the problems?

I found the SXTune software Ok, once I learnt all of the quick keys.

I bought my kit of somebody on here. After I bought it the original owner posted saying he sold it because he couldn't get it running right and knocked the system & ECU.

The installed map was all over the place, after about 1 hour on the rolling road, the engine ran better than a well tuned carb. After a another hour or do on the road it was very good. Never got cold starts sorted, but I didn't really try. Swapped out to the 7 port instead.

Class C 3rd Place Avon 2011 14.18 @101mph

I hope one day to have the sc injection kit on a mild 1293 N/A of mine.. ive heard good things (and theyre not far from me, so that helps) i spoke to a guy at pod who was running it after a swap from a weber n said it drove really nice down low yet took off smoothly and quickly and drove like an animal when he needed it, said it was much more driveable now with the sc kit

I agree about the S.c. Software being a bit clunky, but in my experience the fuel injection works ok. My car runs a map frim graham's. 998 with a load more fuel in it to get it going, then an hour if road tuning with somebody with good tuning experience.

Mine drives really well considering I built it. Not sure I would use it though if I was building another.

I've already done port injection on my lads Mini 30 for less than a £1000, including twin widebands.

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=541366

We are now collecting/fabricating parts to add a turbo over the clutch housing. Although pace has been slow whilst we get the other cars mobile.

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=571531

This method could be used on a 200hp monster.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

I know Tom, it will get done as time and funds allow.

Yep, its like night and day. The SC software is hard to use and I'm not convinced that you have all of the controls..
Bad points I found with the SC
- The data logging is not very good.
- There was some strange things happening to the timing table, a function somewhere kept pulling the timing back at random times. On the road I saw -2 deg.... yep that's minus 2....

The operator is experienced tunes all sorts of ECU's, megajolt, mega squirt, DTA, piggy back jobs, and now VEMS. Hes no dope. We never got it to a state where we could complete the tune.

There were some extra advantages that made me swap, the outputs are none existent on the SC kit, and I wanted to run a couple of extra controls. I also wanted to move the injectors closer to the Supercharger.

Like I say maybe if SC tuned it?

As I say I wanted better data logging, move the injectors, more outputs to run the water injection, add and IACV etc. The SC got me into injection and Colin helped me massively to move to a VEMS system that would work. If it wasn't for Colin I would have saved the extra dosh and go for a DTA and have the operator wire and fit the kit.

Edited by gr4h4m on 23rd Dec, 2015.

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

Also not wanting to be a wanker, I think some of the issue is the distance between the injector and the charger. I know that's the same with a carb, but I think the charger still pulls some fuel on over run out of the jet that is then is available when you first put your foot on the loud pedal...

Andy, I hope we get chance to have the cars side by side next year... maybe down the strip... :)

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

I'm going to give it another go this year graham, so hopefully.

Thanks guys, especially those of you with experience with the SC kits.
I guess some stuff I can only get an answer from SC about, and will probably pick the phone up or fire an email off to them at some point.

And thanks to Paul too, I think I might just have to read into the MS set ups a bit more (at all)
As I say, building a circuit board type assembly isn't something I've had much experience... hell, I even soldered the 2 wires on my megajolts hard-cut limiter the wrong way round!
Sounds like quite a challenge, but could be very advantageous with being sure the systems exactly up to my requirements.

Edited by mini93 on 26th Dec, 2015.

David.

It's going to cost a bit to build a 200hp engine. Pity to scimp on the fueling and put it at risk.

The kit I use these days is available fully built, off-the-shelf standard MS. No need to do any soldering.

If you choose to go the MS route, then there is plenty of support on here.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Not getting enough fuel into the outer cylinders.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

So I decided i would go for the megasquirt set up, I've been reading through a bit on here, though 1000 topics in the efi sub-section here is a little much to sift through, I have also seen a lot of if is fairly old, some of which is relating to the MS2 set up.

I just want to put my thinkings up here, get some notes in and hopefully some of the questions are just simple stuff and just make sure I'm heading in the right direction.

So i'll be going to the MS3x set up.
1. With my intended aim of 200bhp i'll need 4 injectors for this. Do I want to be running these as 2 low down injectors and stage the 2nd set of injectors to come in at a higher rate, or run 4 injectors, one for each cylinder?

2. If I'm to run staged injection of 2 then 2, do I leave the injectors open for the 2 cycles? (as I read this is the issue of siamese afterall, or am I missing something here?)

3. I dont really want COP ignition, has anyone had experience of the VW arangement as outlined on the hardware manuel? (pg91)

4. What size throttle body do I want to be on the look out for? I have used an online calculator which says I only need a 42mm or there abouts size unit. Thought I saw quoted on here about 50mm (single TB) so is there a size difference when working with positive manifold pressure?
Though I had contemplated using a jenvey, DCOE pattern as this already comes with 2 injector bosses I would then use 2 more bosses upstream if the staged injection was the route to go. Would there be any implications using this type of throttle body? Only one I could think of was that the DCOE pattern doesn't line up directly with the inlet ports meaning the charge would have to turn corners.

5. for the inlet manifold, do I want to be using a plenum? if so, how long of an inlet do I want to run up-till the bell-mouths in the plenum, or does it again not matter as it's boosted I dont need to worry about inlet tuning.

6. A newbie point, but I didnt actually read it anywhere and just want to make sure, the 3 lambda sensor arrangement, the 2 sensors pre-turbo are just for monitoring/ data-logging (and making changes where required?) and the 3rd post turbo is for closed look thats fed into the ECU?

7.When It comes to the widebands, I have a fusion fab's side mount set up, will I likely get away without going the sample tube route? I have read the ideal distance from cylinder is 18 inches and I have more than that before the turbo.
If I put the 2 sensors just before the join to the turbo, cylinder 1 and 2 are already joined and 2&3 obviously already are, is this the ideal way of doing it? so in effect I have data from the paired inner and outer cylinder?

8. I want to run switchable boost based on rpm/gear, is this something that the megasquirt can do for me?

9. Water/methanol injection, I haven't looked too far into this, I know the systems for these kits will flag-up when the mix is getting low, but I wouldn't want incorrect fueling/boost if this was to happen, or should I be looking at this as a complete stand alone system and not worry about how it'll work with the megasquirt?

10. If I want to also monitor EGT's i'll need to get the extra GPIO board, has anyone experience of this on here?


I'm sure there'll be many more questions when I get the kit, but this'll get me started I hope.


Many thanks,

Dave.

David.

I've tride my best to answer below:

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Thanks Paul,

A great help there, much appreciated.
I have gone ahead and placed my order, I await my customs letter and hopefully soon after my new box 'o trick.


Dave.

David.

I'll just add to a couple of points,

7 (sample chambers or not).
The thing to bear in mind is the LSUs do not just have an upper temperature limit that may be exceeded if you install them straight into the exhaust runners before the turbo, but they are also pressure sensitive. Changing pressures - which is inevitable before the turbo - will skew the readings.
This is partcularly so with the Bosch 4.2 LSUs which a lot of the aftermarket wideband controllers still use. The newer 4.9s seem to be a lot better when it comes to pressure.
Have a read of this,
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...tid=571621&fr=0 or just skip to part way down page two where you will find all the links to the datasheets.
I don't think anyone has tried them yet without sample chambers. Myself and Graham T are using them (for other reasons) but still in sample chambers.
Also, if you are going to try without, I would suggest you consider using a controller that reports their internal temperature (or stick a thermocouple in where you mount them).

10 (GPIO).
If you are referring specifically to the DIYautotune version, then no, not me anyway.
Myself and Graham T use Jean's IOx products. (Not sure if Paul still does but I remember him purchasing one ages ago).
I find using Jean's stuff much more flexible but, depending on which product, it can vary from a bit of DIY to an awful lot.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???