Would like to inject my mini.
Turbo Mini Forums

Hey guys. Please bear with me on this one…

I've been thinking about injection for a while now, and I really would like to give it ago in the near future.
I've got a few bits already and will get more as and when they come up etc.


I've done a lot of research into it and understand the problems with injecting the 5port engine, but would like to be able to say i've done it.
BUT… if i get such a esponse from this next question that it changes my mind, then it won't get done…

Is it worth bothering, considering the 5port siamese port robbing issue? Will I just be wasting my time?


My plan is to have a single throttle body, and 'port inject' with the injectors in a similar position to the MPI.
Now i understand 1 of the problems is getting the correct injector size for the complete range of engine speeds. So is it possible to have 2 injectors on each side, so that only one fires on lower revs but both fire on the higher rev range when they've got less time to get more fuel in? Has that been done? Can it be done?

I've got my choice of ecu down to either CANEMS, POLESTAR or EMERALD.

Ive got an engineer friend on board who will be able to do all the necessary machining / making bits!

I've not got a great deal of knowledge on the subject, but i want to learn. I've got a few people around me.


If this doesn't seem like a very good idea then i've got the option of 7porting it, BUT, i'd rather try and achieve this, if it's actually possible!



Cheers.

Edited by screech on 27th Jul, 2015.

Question is what do you want out of your injected setup?

If it's a proven setup that's plug and play, matches the outright power of a 45 dcoe carb, coupled with much improved control lower down the rev range / throttle openings I'd settle with the specialist components setup even if it's little more than an electronic carb and doesn't balance inter cylinder fuel ratio's and pressure.

If it's a quest to best master the quirks of siamese port injection I'd join the Megasquirt siamese code fraternity...alternatively wait for SC to finalise its direct injection setup.

Cannes imo is a halfway house at best, offering quite dated solid state ecu technology loaded with a very early version of the siamese code team's software.

Dave Walker at Emerald has played with siamese injection in the past and I'm sure he wouldn't touch it with a barge pole if asked again Polestar I don't know about other than being used in miglia for mapped ignition.

Edited by Evoderby on 27th Jul, 2015.

Thanks for the reply.

I would like to achieve reliability and drivability along with no cold start issues that I've always had with carbs and constant tweeking.
I know many people will say these things can be ironed out, but injection and modernising appeals to me.


I was looking at the SC kit when I first thought of injection and missed out on 2 kits that came up on TMF, but now I'm glad I did as that not the route I want to take.

If I'm doing it at all, I would like to work on the Siamese port robbing issue.

Megasquirt wasn't on my list, as to be honest, I thought it was very much a diy system with no one at the end of the phone or a tuner that specifically works with them. Am I wrong here?

Polestar I believe has an injection ecu that was developed for the a series, but that could just be as you described the canems one, which is now off my list.


Cheers

If you want to rely on a tuner to make this work I think you should stop right now. That will not happen.

http://www.jbperf.com/

As far as I know megasquirt is indeed a diy system. However if it's siamese code you want this is what the siamese code team developed it and associated circuit boards for.
I'm sure the SC system features proper cold start enrichment, although it doesn't have an idle control valve as standard their Ecu can handle one....have a talk with them to see how much it would cost to add this to the kit should this be your concern for not choosing SC.

Otherwise it DIY time I am afraid

Thanks for the replies and advise.

I didn't mean I just want to hand it over to someone to sort it out, I am more than happy to do the work and development on it.
What I do mean is that when/if it goes to a rolling road for fine tuning.
I went to a rolling road a few years ago with the megajolt and he didn't have a clue what he was looking at.

So now this has come up, I've had a quick look over a bit of megasquirt info on here, a thread that Graham T started a few years ago, and it looks very interesting and positive.
That's what I like to see and that why I'm asking the questions.
So from now on I think I'll be researching on the megasquirt 'code' as you call it.


Cheers!

Have a look at this: http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=571531

http://www.jbperf.com/

Have a look at my Blog www.jamesobartlett.com, I've been running a MegaSquirt TBI for nay on 4 years now. I've got it off the road at the moment doing some maintenance and mods (knock sensor, timestamp board, bluetooth etc), but will be back up and running hopefully within the next 3 weeks. In a few months after that, I'll be converting from the current Speed Density system (SD), to a Mass Air Flow (MAF) using a Bosch MAF.

A few MegaSquirt guys are having very good results with MAF, which the MS handles quite well Also, if you are looking at the MS, you will need the TunerStudio application, which if you buy the registered version, includes a utility to 'auto tune' the Volumetric Efficiency (VE) table. When my car was started for the first time the autotune feature had e up and running within a hour or so, good enough that I attended a car show the next day a couple of 100kms round trip with no major problems.

Best of luck for what ever way you go.

Jim

'68 Morris Mini 1310 A+ Visit my Blog: http://www.jims-blog.com

Thanks for the advice guys, I have been contemplating just using the SC kit just to get me going, as I saw one come up second hand but it turns out he's a bit of a tool.

So I'm going back to plan A, and I'm happy to do the work and understand it may take a bit longer to get right.

I'm just looking out for an inlet manifold for my throttle body, then I can get some injector bosses fabricated onto it.

I shall have a read at the links, and hopefully get a megasquirt ordered soon!


Cheers

Edited by screech on 9th Aug, 2015.

Check out what Paul S does on this forum the guys a genius with injecting the 5 port. He's helping me do my 998 each time I get stuck

I've got a full single point injection engine coming up for sale soon which i can include the whole loom
or just have the injection set up if that helps?

Thanks for the offer, but not really the route I'm looking to go down.

I've read a lot of Paul's stuff, and there's still a lot of it that goes over my head, but in sure I'll learn along the way.

My inlet manifold turned up yesterday, so I'll be taking that to be played with this week. I've got a pair of MPI injectors for it.

There's obviously a lot of questions I'm going to need to ask, what do people suggest I do, maybe start a build thread or something? as I don't really want to be opening a new topic everytime I think of a question!?


Cheers

I suggest that you start a new thread. I'll help where I can.

Build it right and you can have a good running car within a couple of hours of fine tuning :)

Here is my latest build thread:

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=541366

It's a 998 but the principles are just the same.

If you are using 2 standard MPi injectors, then your power will be limited to 60-70 bhp in my experience.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Ok I shall do that, thanks.

I decided on Mpi injectors as I'm sure that's what I read someone else was using for this mod (though can't remember what post that was now)
So what would you advise? Before I get the bosses made, would they be interchangeable anyway?

I'm running 1293 stage 3, SW5 cam. Currently with a weber 28/36- running around 90bhp.

I've always like the principle of the 28/36, so when I decided to give FI a go, I wanted to keep that, so I got myself a progressive twin choke throttle body to try it with, and that's where we are now.

Cheers

Edited by screech on 10th Aug, 2015.

The progressive twin choke of the 28/36 was to help with the fuel metering. Running all the air through the 28mm choke at light loads gave a better response and more accurate fuel delivery.

With EFI, you don't need that.

I suggest that you do more research before you embark on EFi.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

The idea was to have the low end torque and drivability of a small choke, but without compromising the top end.
I know modern TB's are now shaped to allow for this, but I've had it kicking around for some time and fancy giving it a go and being a bit different.

Cheers.

You would need to use a small bore inlet tract to improve the low end torque. The throttle body bore alone will have little impact.

The old progressive carbs like the 28/36 improved the low end torque and driveability by improved mixture atomisation at small throttle openings.

By all means try it, but you would get the same results from a single choke throttle body with a progressive linkage.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Thanks for your advice, of which I have taken on board.
I'm holding off taking my inlet to be modified now while I decide what to do. I know of an MPI manifold going spare, but I would like to do something a bit different, don't want it just looking like an MPI!

Cheers

If you use the complete MPi setup with injectors, TB, sensors, fuel rail FPR etc. it works out very cost effective. If you build the ECU from a kit you can do the whole port-injection setup including twin widebands for less then the price of a new aftermarket wet manifold kit.

It may not be what you finally wish to end up with but it is a good starting point and will ease your way up the steep learning curve.

Does ours look like an MPi?

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

It does seem the most logical way to go, so I'll see if my mates stool got his Mpi manifold up for grabs.
Will put a nice throttle body on it and appropriate injectors.
Yours does look good. I do like the idea of the on/near plug coils, do you think there is a real advantage to them?

The coils are discussed here:

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...tid=277161&fr=0

Don't take any notice of the ECU discussion, that is MS2 specific. With the MS3X, it is just a simple connection to the output and a live and ground for the supply.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Paul's is a very nice setup and 5 years on there may be more options; Some VW use a logic level coil pack with all 4 coils in the same unit. Cheapest I can see is about £60 £40 new, which is not bad at all and will cost less in bracketry / wiring/ plugs compared to 4 single coils.





A bit of searching leads straight back to the MSExtra manuals with some useful info.

Edited by PhilR on 15th Aug, 2015.

I like that

I bought 4 sets of the LS coils about 5 years ago, so all my builds will use them, but there are now easier options. Whether they have the same oomph as the LS coils.... who knows?

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

That 4 coil coilpack seems to be the weapon of choice on the MS-E forums at the moment.

I have one on my desk at the moment to play with.

Driving them with a couple of TC4277 chips just seems so easy, even with the humble MS2 once it's in fully sequential mode.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Ok, I've just bought one off ebay for £39.99. More research needed, but for that price I'll happily try this as an upgrade from my MS2 + single coil + dizzy arrangement, even if it's only firing wasted spark in the short term.

Edited by PhilR on 15th Aug, 2015.