Lithium-ion Battery
Turbo Mini Forums

So i bought one and the long and the short of it is didnt work! No where near enough power, couldn't even turn the engine over. I was just wondering if anyone else has tried one or if this is end of the road for that idea!? Would work ok with a slave setup but thats no good for most uses.

Heres what bought: http://www.allbatteries.co.uk/motorcycle-b...x14-mot156.html

Im using the usual hi torque starter so it should be low current draw.

I notice there is another more expensive option but the specs didnt seem much better? Maybe its possible to use two in parallel as that would still be a substantial weight saving. Thoughts?

Stupid question but it was charged correctly wasn't it?

I believe so. The indicator on the battery is at full charge and its putting out 13.7v. I put it on charge for an hour or so and it took a few amps but nothing else changed. One thing I did notice in the notes was that I needs 14v+ to charge fully which is more than you will get out of a charger alone but even if that worked I couldn't see it starting the car!

Edited by slater on 13th Jan, 2015.

You could do with measuring the current when cranking (with a normal battery). If it's less than they battery specified maximum then it should go.

But 4Ah seems a bit small, it's only crank it for a short time before being flat.

I use a similar battery on my bike engine car and seems ok. I know a guy who uses on an Evo engine no problem, but it's bigger than the 4Ah one.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

www.twin-turbo.co.uk

Dependant on the exact chemistry of the cells, 13.7V should be close if not fully charged.

If you look at the specs on that website they look fantastic (read unbelievable). The quoted 240CCA equates to a 60C discharge rate from the 4Ah battery.

Li-Ion batteries are typically capable of delivering 10C in short pulses while being capable of 3C continuous, which equates to 40A and 12A respectively.

4ah? Rather small for a real car no?
My rc drift skyline is 5.8ah

Edited by Brett on 13th Jan, 2015.

Yes i moved to the darkside

Instagram @jdm_brett

Well this is the thing. I had my doubts. The capacity is low but that's not such a problem if your car starts ok. It's the current the thing can give that's the problem.

Im quite sure a few of the lads on 16vminiclub run these batterys and im sure Allan McD (on here and 16vminiclub) sells them. Theres a video doing the rounds on youtube of 4 LiFePo4 cells stating a car So no reason to believe a pack of 8? or so Li-ion cells cant start a car. seems within the realms of possibility to me. Perhaps a bad battery?

turbo 16v k-series 11.9@118.9 :)

Denis O'Brien.

It's Allan who uses them on his Evo engined mini.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

www.twin-turbo.co.uk

4Ah seems way too low , am i right in thinking most 12v car batteries range between 60 and 130 Ah ? I know that voltage X Ah gives you total power. Most cordless tools run around 3Ah at 18v . Also worth considering on our cordless tools Li-Ion batteries are effected by the cold weather and performance is reduced drastically in sub zero temperatures .

Edited by redrat on 13th Jan, 2015.

It's not quite that simple ah is just a measure of capacity not how many amps (and hence power) you can get out of it. It stated 220amp cca which sounds good enough to me but obviously isn't

I know there are other people on here that have bought these batteries. Im assuming no one has run one in anger yet tho? Anyone care to lend me another so we can try a pair??

Ah man... is this the same battery alaskanow has got for his? Anyone else running one? I was wanting one for mine

Edited by D4VE on 13th Jan, 2015.

Hi Slater,

I got your PM regarding your battery, I have held off replying to this thread because even though I have started to evaluate a couple of different LiFePO4 and gel batteries I really am not in a position to make any recommendations either way. And I am sure what people want to hear is simple, do they work or not? Before shelling out.

I am currently testing a couple of lighter gel type batteries (Varley and Odyssey) and a couple of LiFePO4 batteries, I haven't got them here as a friend is doing some tests on them (Discharge tests or summat) but I didn't go as small as the one shown in your link. I think the lightest one I had was about 1.1 kg maybe more?

But yes I hooked them up to my daily (Std lead acid is 60Ah / 600 CCA) and it started easily enough, but will it do it week in week out in the cold, sat in traffic, without needing recharging? dunno yet. If they hadn't started the daily that would have been the end of the tests and out of pocket, vainly hoping they would work on the Mini when done.

I am looking at fitting the LiFePO4 battery next to the std lead acid battery in the car so I can run it for as long as it will allow without recharging it and then when / if it doesn't start. I can quickly swap the terminals over back to the lead acid and still get to work on time. :)

Cheers

EDIT: I forgot...

It was suggested I just used my plain old Lead acid charger (it doesn't have any fancy desulphation modes) so I didn't use my intelligent CTEK charger (which does have a desulphation mode = 15.8v) hence not supposed to be used with Li-Ion.

The voltage kept climbing through 14v towards / past 15v so I stopped it, my charger spec states it regulates to no more than 15v, so either double check what your charger is outputting whilst the battery is charging so as not to exceed 15v or budget for a Li_Ion specific charger if yours doesn't regulate all that well.

I suspect that some lead acid chargers aren't as well regulated as the spec suggests, which may not be a big deal for lead acid but all the Li-ion bumpf keeps emphasising not to exceed it.

According to the user manual the CTEK Lithium XS charger is limited to no more than 13.8v in all but one mode which is 14.4v 'maximization mode'....

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 15th Jan, 2015.

I use this battery in my car. It starts the car no problem with a high torque starter motor. You do run into issues if you have to turn the car over for any length of time though.

Taken from the Skyrich website: The 22 commandments :)

As regards your suggestion of using more than one battery - Point 15

Ⅵ: Cautions
1. Do not immerse the battery in water.
2. Do not use or store the battery near sources of fire or heater.
3. Do not reverse the positive (+) or negative (-) terminals.
4. Do not connect the battery directly to wall outlets.
5. Do not put the battery into a fire or apply direct heat to it.
6. Do not short-circuit the battery by connecting wires or other metal objects to the positive (+) and negative (-) terminals.
7. Do not pierce the battery casing with a nail or other sharp objects, break it open with a hammer, or step on it.
8. Do not strike, throw, or subject the battery to sever physical shock.
9. Do not directly solder the battery terminals.
10. Do not attempt to disassemble or modify the battery in any way.
11. Do not place the battery in a microwave oven or pressurized container.
12. Do not use the battery in combination with primary batteries (such as dry cell batteries) or batteries of different capacity, type, or brand.
13. Do not use the battery if it gives off an odor, generates heat, becomes discolored or deformed, or appears abnormal in any way. If the battery is in use or being recharged, remove it from the device or charger immediately and discontinue use.
14. Do not fit extra Audio, Anti-theft lock and other electro-device on vehicle by yourself.
15. Do not use more than one battery in parallel or in series.
16. Do not press on indicator button longer than few seconds.
17. Do not dispose the battery before completely discharge.
18. Do not charge the battery by charging voltage over 15.0V.
19. Do not charge the battery by charger with an automatic “desulfation mode” function.
20. Please fix the battery terminal with original screws and nuts securely. Battery and even vehicle may be damaged by the sparks because of the loose connect
21. The cranking performance will be affected when environment temperature lower than -5℃.
22. Keep out of reach of Children and Pets.

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 15th Jan, 2015.

Mmm more fiddling required next week then! It is a 1450 with 10.5:1 CR so does take a bit more to turn it over then a 1275 turbo motor i guess. I might get it going on the normal lead acid battery and see if makes any difference with the motor warmed up. If i could get it turning over on this one it would give me the confidence to go out and buy the 7ah version i think. Im not looking for it to be capable of every day use or cold mornings but it does need to be reliable enough to take on the road without constant fear of getting stranded.

I hadn't spotted that commandment but i did spot the 'no jump starting' one which to me is kind of the same thing. My limited electrical knowledge doesn't really understand why it matters if its in parallel tho, so long as it doesn't see more then 15v/20A it should be all good.

But very often the fact that a car is not a daily or used frequently is worse as far as batteries go

I will only be happy if a battery I charged a week ago and is fitted in the car with a possiblitly of slight residual current draw from a radio / alarm still starts if it's 3 - 4 degrees ambient today if I want to go out.

The problem is these batteries will be going into cars which probably have small alternators, could have std starter motors with high CR, may not start on the first turn of the key due to mapping / cold start setups, not have perfect earths / have 20+ yr old wiring looms etc...

I am not expecting it to be fit and forget but I want to know what factor of safety I have got, As a new Li-Ion battery from one charge does it last a day, a week, a month? Does it have to be above 5 deg ambient to start? Nothing I have read on the internet gives me any real world information so the only option I have is to fit it to a daily with a plan B if it goes wrong. If I go out for the day and it ends up wet and cold is it going to start when I get back to it after having run with the lights / wipers / heater on just before it was parked up?

I can't trust my lead acid charger from the tests I have done, so need to factor in the cost of a new charger, so for anyone reading this who hoped it was an £80 option, could end up spending £250 ish in total (Bigger Li-Ion + charger) but still have something which needs constant attention. Or it could be fine at £80 with minimal attention, I dunno. But it is inescapable that in the price area we are looking at (Less than £200 for the battery alone) these are Motorcycle batteries and none of the suppliers are selling them for use with cars, so little chance of sending them back as unfit. Some may be willing to take that gamble as its potentially a good weight saving, I have

I have done quite a few things on my car, the Li-Ion included that I haven't posted pictures of in my build thread as they may not work / may break

Keep us updated with your findings, will it turn the engine over with the plugs out? Just to rule out if its a duff unit or just struggling with the high CR.

I will try and test mind out this evening on my 9-1CR 1380 turbo and let you know. I'm running a high torque starter on both minis.

Mine was bought to start 12-1CR race 1293cc

Class C 3rd Place Avon 2011 14.18 @101mph

Did it start yours?

More negative than positive but a little more learned from what I have done

My colleague / friend who works in power electronics / KERS type stuff did some tests on the LiFePO4 batteries initially to just compare with the lead acid as far as discharge curve / behaviour goes, but he noticed that the LiFePO4 units seemed to be getting slightly worse during each repeat test, (he left enough time between tests for any temperature effects from charging / discharging) so he did a few more just to confirm - not sure if this a general characteristic or something specific to the quality / quality control of these units (Chinese). All tests done within the spec of the batteries so not discharged below the minimum quoted voltage and all charging done as per quoted limits.

Tried to start this morning, (Audi 1.8T - 9.0:1 CR) temp was flickering between -0.5 and 0 degrees from the in car gauge, not a prayer, turned over but really slow, not quick enough to start it. I will have a more suitable charger by tomorrow to try again.

N.B. Turned over / started OK the day before @ 2.5 Deg, maybe a combination of temp and drain on battery from previous day starting?

Might try and warm the battery up to see if its just temperature or something else

Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 18th Jan, 2015.

Li-ion battery's aqtualy perform better when yhey are cooled tha heated. Same reasen why they get cooled when charged in some device's or that they can get a small performance boost when put into a fridge

you can do anything if you set your mind to it...
i rather blow it up winning than keep it together losing.

finish date set for project 1... march 2018

The temperature related aspect of my above post / testing related to the starting (and hence cold crank performance) of my daily...

Taken from one of the LiFePO4 battery manufacturers website in the FAQ section, I haven't copied it all just the relevant stuff about low temp cold cranking... (The copied section is between the 'dashes')

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question: Can I use my lithium battery normally in low-temperature environment?

Answer: Lithium batteries cranking performance will be degraded as temperature drops,. However, they still react to cranking under -10℃. Lead-acid battery type will increase resistance on each subsequent cranking attempt, until it won’t turn over.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know that LiFePO4 batteries do not like to be at high temps such as 50 - 60 Deg C but I have never seen any information suggesting that LiFePO4 performs better at what you quote as 'fridge' type temperatures as far as cranking performance? - (My interpretation of fridge temps is 0 - 4 Deg C and lower)

Can you point me to any technical papers / info that suggests that LiFePO4 performs better at these temperatures when cranking?

I don't pretend to be in anyway knowledgeable on battery technology, I only know what I researched before I purchased this battery and everything suggested that UK winter type temps would be a problem for LiFePO4 and my practical tests seem to support this? I am just trying to improve my knowledge with respect to this technology

Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 18th Jan, 2015.

I looked at the info again and you might be right. I mistaking the using with aqtualy charging. They don't perform better in colder temperatures but they do charge better when cooled down before charging. ( temprature of 5to 7 degrees celcius to be ideal) has something to do with the cells. Ill look if i can get the info on digital. ( that is what i have in my course papers of 9 years ago)

Edited by Rammie2000 on 18th Jan, 2015.

you can do anything if you set your mind to it...
i rather blow it up winning than keep it together losing.

finish date set for project 1... march 2018

Hi all, from what I've read about lithium-ion batteries they have to be charged very carefully as not to cause them to overheat and fail or even explode. Do these battery packs come with a charging control unit that monitors them whilst charging to prevent disaster, or do they just connect straight to the alternators noisy rectified output which the lead acids don't care about? I'd question the safety implications if that is the case.
Edit.
I've just looked at the product, good sales speak, notice the line" technology- non rechargeable" lol

Please research li-ion batteries discharge rates and charging, it needs to be very controlled or they overheat quickly.

Edited by Nick king on 18th Jan, 2015.