MS3 Development vs. 5 port
Turbo Mini Forums

How does the development of the MS3 board affect using MS for a Mini?

It has sequential capabilties built in, correct? What about the MS3X?

Terry

Sequential injection is available on MS3 but it doesn't have the siamese-port option yet. I don't have access to the code so I don't know how easy it would be to add neither do I know where it is on the list of priorities (or if it is even there). I'm sure that if there is demand, it will be added.

I don't know how this will affect the use of MS for Mini users. The cost of the MS3 will be significantly higher but there are also more possibilities. I would think that the MS2 solution will remain the best choice for a while but that remains to be seen.

In any case, the tuning theory will remain the same and since there is a lot of commonality between MS2/Extra and MS3, the practical aspects of tuning will also be very similar.

It might be a good idea to ask this on the msextra forum to see what James and Ken have to say about it. They will be the ones working on the MS3 code for the foreseeable future.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Thanks Jean

I am interested in you squirt based project when you get it going, but I am also interested in starting now. Is there a list of what is needed beyond the B&G partial kit? I thought there was a post that listed what was needed, but I cannot find it. I think either Rod or Paul has a photo of the components in their build thread, but not a list of parts.

Edited by tmsmini on 4th Feb, 2010.

We are working on a build guide, so that you can build an MS2 specifically to use the siamesed code options.

It should be finished in the next few weeks and may include a parts list. Perhaps Rod will confirm.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

As Rod says, for a basic 2 injector setup, the standard MS2 V3.0 build is used.

One thing you may need depends if you will be using a VR sensor for the cam trigger (with a crank VR sensor). If so, you'll need to make a VR conditioner circuit using either an add-on board or build it in the proto area. If you use a Hall or opto cam sensor with a crank VR sensor then you can simply use the MS board optocoupler for the cam trigger. If you use Hall/opto sensors for both crank and cam, you will need an additional optocoupler circuit.

The other thing you may need depends if you will continue to use the distributor, use a wasted spark coil pack, or use COPs. If you want to use the distributor, you won't need any additional component but I would not recommend doing that due to ignition timing scatter due to the mechanical components. If you use a wasted spark coil pack, you will need an additional ignition driver and if you use COPS, you will need 4 drivers (3 more than the standard build).

Jean

Edited by jbelanger on 4th Feb, 2010.

http://www.jbperf.com/

I look forward to the build guide. Free to us turbomini-ers, or will you get it printed and sell it? I know I would buy it.

I would love to have an early draft just for the parts lists and to know what components to buy from Jean

Another reminder for me to get on and finish my part of it.....

tmsmini, I can certainly let you know what the "parts list" is but, because I haven't tidied it up for all the options, it would be easier if you said what you intended build is to be.

ie, from the basis 2 injector setup (as mentioned above, the standard V3.0 MS2 build) through to (at the other extreme) multiple injectors, staged injection, COP/CNP etc, where you will be needing one or more of Jean's boards as well as the V3.0 MS2. The point being if you are needing to use one or more of Jean's boards, you can leave an awful lot of parts off the MS2 board.

The key criteria are,
High or low z injectors ?
If low z, how many ?
Normal injection or staged injection ?
Anything exotic on the ignition like COP/CNP, logic level drives (we would consider a direct driven coilpack to be "normal") ?
Anything out of the ordinary for the two triggers (we would consider a 36:1 wheel and VR pickup on the crank and a home made Hall or optical switch somewhere on the cam drive train to be "normal" but the MPI block for example has a VR sensor already installed on the cam) ?

Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

I appreciate the offer, but I am afraid my intended application will not be in the mainstream and I am not sure I have sufficient knowledge to respond properly. Initially I am looking to just replicate the Rover system, once that is stable and functional then move on with other modifications.

Many questions were answered here:
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=323764

I have two MPi engines. One will eventually go in a car and the other used for ongoing testing and development.

I would like to make use of as much of the Rover system as possible, including injectors and cam sensor. I have purchased a trigger wheel as a backup if necessary. I would also like to attempt to make use of the Rover MAP sensor if that is possible using a circuit and wiring similar to Microsquirt. This is one of the areas where I don't understand the specifics of Mega vs. Micro implementation. Eventually I would purchase one of Jean's Microsquirt based systems and this would go in the road car and use the other system for development.

I realize that I need to adapt a Peugeot IAC and provide dual wideband sensors and controllers.

One of the engines is being rebuilt and will be finished soon. I had originally planned to have everything working on the other engine (supposedly a "runner") before the rebuild was finished, but family issues and other things have slowed me down.

Thanks for your patience and willingness to respond to my uneducated posts.

Terry,

If you are just looking to replicate the Rover system then just buy or build a "standard" MS2.

The only extras you would need is two ignition ICs to run the coilpack (standard build is one only) and an additional VR conditioner board for the MPI cam sensor as it is VR, not hall or Opto.

Theoretically you can use the existing MPI crank sensor (on the back of the flywheel) but, I think Jean has said previously, this hasn't actually been tested on a real engine yet. But we know the 36:1 wheel works as an alternative.

Re the MAP sensor, I'm sure the Rover one could be made to work but as the MS2 has an internal one anyway, I'd use that option first.

The issue with the Microsquirt for the future is its support the siamese code, as Jean has said above, plus so far, all who are experimenting with, or successfully using, the siamese code are doing so on MS2.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

As Rod mentioned, there is yet to be anyone using the Rover trigger but that should be relatively easy to adjust if it needs to. And I'm not sure you need to use a Peugeot IAC. You could test the MS2 with the standard item as it should work one way or another.

The MAP could be used as long as you can characterize it and that it is a linear voltage sensor and not a current or frequency sensor. You would have to use some of the spare pins for this.

The Microsquirt module has been used for sequential setups in the DIYAutotune DIYPNP so it will work with the siamese code. The main issue is that there is no stepper IAC controller so you'd have to add one. Luckily with 2 injectors, this is possible (4 injector channels is not possible with the stepper IAC since there is a pin conflict between the 2 on the module). But the Microsquirt module has the advantage of having 2 VR conditioners but it would need validation with the Rover sensor since the second circuit is strangely configured.

So as Rod mentioned, you should start with a standard MS2 build with 2 ignition drivers (one more than standard) and add an LM1815 VR circuit on the proto area. Keep all the Rover sensor to start with but use the MS on-board MAP sensor.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

So I don't need to buy anything from you, Jean, except perhaps a stimulator? I don't need the dual VR board?

Terry

No you don't need the dual VR board if you're comfortable building the circuit in the proto area.

As for the JimStim, you may be better off getting one from the same place you're getting the MS2 since I don't have full kits which is much nicer to work with (not to mention that it's about the same price as getting all the components yourself if not cheaper).

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/