RR Day Logs
Turbo Mini Forums

Here is the log from the RR Day:



And the RR printout:



Basically suffering from poor fueling and a misfire, according to the RR guy. The saw tooth nature of the power curve indicates the misfire apparently.

Not sure why the fueling was out, as the last few logs have been much better. We did make a lot of changes last week, but mainly improving cruise.

The car behaved perfectly on the drive there, but was popping and banging like nobodys business on the way home although it did seem to clear after a while.

We can see from the log leading up to the power run that the LC-1 packed up for a while and then came back all spikey. It was still spikey during the run.

I spent yesterday morning sorting it out. I put the foil back around the wideband sensors and wiring and the inner cylinder signal has settled down. Last week, we took the foil off for a photograph or two and re-routed the cables, but they had slipped towards the coil pack.

I also torqued the head down as there appeared to be some water in number one cylinder and the spark plug looked steam cleaned!

I thought it was fixed, but we went to Halfords to get some new plugs and for a very short period it misfired on boost again.

Anyway, I think that the hoped for 120hp is there. We just need to sort the misfire.

Oh, and the fuel pressure is all over the place. I had set it at 3.2 bar. It was 2.9 bar on Friday, so I wound it back up to 3.2. But then yesterday it was at 3.5!!!

I'm going to fit some new HT leads and a new fuel pressure regulator. Also increase the dwell which is currently set at 2.5mS, which may be causing the miss?

Edited by Paul S on 19th Oct, 2009.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

looking at the power graph, you have a nice amount of power there not forgetting your using a 998 small block turbo with an experimental fuel injection system 90% of us on here dont understand even the basics me included, i think you can be proud of your achievements all the other bits are niggles and fine tuning that are to be expected in any build,

so a big WELL DONE!!

Yes i moved to the darkside

Instagram @jdm_brett

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Still bloody clever stuff Paul, I wish I has 50% of your knowledge on EFI.

You car didn't go on the scales, as you said you had it done recently, can you PM Matt Woods or me you weight so we car canculate power to weight ratio for the mag?

Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

As already said,

Well done for getting it there, I didn't........

As for the graphs, I've split my screen and put the Oct 12th one against it, looking at the 3rd gear part.

The RR obviously offers more resistance to acceleration as everything happens slower, but, otherwise, it's only the AFRs that differ.

As the RR graph certainly implies a misfire, is it not possible the AFR readings are being skewed by the unburnt fuel ???

My understanding is a misfire will make an LSU read weak as the unburnt fuel skews the oxygen level. That would make the graph match a misfire on one of the outers ???

Or have I got it all wrong again ???

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

I think that you are correct Rod.

I have a damaged HT lead on No. 1 and No. 1 plug looked odd, so that's my conclusion.

I'd also like Jean's opinion on the very spikey pulse widths. Jumping around between 7 & 8 mS.

Edited by Paul S on 19th Oct, 2009.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Mr. Prawn, the friendly Crustacean- slowly making steps towards forced induction.

Just swapped the HT leads on 1 & 2, also increased dwell to 2.8mS.

Took it for a quick run out. Ran like a dream, but no change with the AFRs.

I'm starting to draw the conclusion that 8mS and 5000rpm are the limit with around 1000cc/min per port on single pulse. That's only 16.6666% duty cycle :( on a cylinder basis.

Now getting a distinct impression that the AFRs are diverging with MAT, but it was OK last weekend.

I need to do a bit more data analysis.

Edited by Paul S on 19th Oct, 2009.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Edited by Paul S on 19th Oct, 2009.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

http://www.jbperf.com/

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

OK then,

I think we have a concencus that a misfire could give the skewed AFR on the outers since the really good log on the 12th so, if there weren't any significant changes to the MSQ from the 12th to the RR, and the RR plot suggests a misfire, how about back to basics ???

Has the coilpack degraded ??? - you've had one go this way before .

Or is there something more fundamental failing ??? - ie head gasket on No 1 or even just a burnt exhaust valve ??? - you have been giving this engine some serious "testing" after all......

Compression test or, better still, leakdown test ???

Allways best to eliminate the mechanical failure possibilities before blaming the electronics.

Just my thoughts at the moment.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Yes - good call Rod.

Good going on all this Paul - respect due to the time, determination and analysis you're putting into this.

Edited by TurboDave16V on 19th Oct, 2009.

Thanks Dave.

Rod, the poor little engine has done nothing but "testing" in it's short life and is probably a little worse for wear. It was pumping out some smoke from the breather/catch tank on the rollers which makes me suspect that there may be mechanical issues.

I'll try and get a compression test done, if I can get my cheap bay tester to work.

If there is an issue with the engine, I'll have to park it up and get on with the 1293 EFi Turbo for the Miglia. I can't get bogged down with this one.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Paul.

The work on your 998 stunned me on Saturday. It is a credit to you, truly amazing, my hat goes off to you for sticking with it - and only turbo'd since June. Just over 100 brake is amazing.

Also, my thanks for downloading your MS ignition map so that I could get a feel for the sort of settings required for the van.

I did actually remap the MS ECU at the Pod on Saturday night and switched over from dizzy to MS but couldn't get the damn thing to fire cleanly enough to do some testing.

I will crack this damn problem one day !

Great work Paul, nice meeting you on Saturday.

Richard.

Minivanless, but reluctantly happy living with the decision. There'll be another one day.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=minimadmotorman#p/u

Thanks Richard.

We now have a video to go with the log. Thanks to MiniMardiMotor Man.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=minima.../15/hvPtt3rMdfY

Sounds fine to me.

Edited by Paul S on 20th Oct, 2009.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

yes well done from me mate, i know your know 100% happy with the results but with the issues aside, still bloody good going for a new project.

Best 1/4 mile 13.2 seconds @116 mph
First 5 port miniturbo to make over 200 bhp on a carb?
First 5 port miniturbo to make over 200 bhp on Injection?

http://www.mattwoodsphotography.com

Thanks Matt. You guys make me feel that it's all worthwhile.

Update on the AFR issue is that nothing has been done yet.

But, all this talk of the AFRs on the outers going lean ------ I'm actually only measuring No. 4, so it should be easy to track down a specific issue with that cylinder.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Could there be a leak close to the sensor? I don't know how that would let air in instead of exhaust out but may be worth a look.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

So far I've changed the plugs to BP7ES, the leads to some new 8mm silicone jobbies and fitted a restrictor to the MAP line to the MS:



I took a similar log when the engine temp was only 78 degrees and there was still quite a spread. There is some temperature related factors getting involved now we are fine tuning. The hotter the engine, the more fuel I can get into the outer cylinders.

Anyway, seem to have got rid of the pulse spikes and pulse width peaked around 9mSec.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

I wonder if that's related to wall wetting. As the engine gets hotter, there is less wall wetting and more of the charge gets directly to the cylinders. This would mean more fuel to the outer cylinders. Fuel vaporized from the ports will always favor the inner cylinders.

I wonder if there would be a need to have a temperature corrected timing in the single pulse mode. The dual pulse mode would need an asymmetrical temperature enrichment that would increase the outer cylinders pulse width since the injection timing should remain the same.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

As long as I know that I have to get it up to temperature before applying boost, I can live with it as it is.

I've booked the Rolling Road for a re-test on the 6th November, so as long as I don't break it in the meantime, we shall see if it is putting out more beans.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."