Megasquirt modifications for Siamese/ sequential code
Turbo Mini Forums

After reading the threads on this site and gennerally researching EFI on the net I have decided to give it a go on my 998 NA.
However, I have been trying to order the MS2 from diyautotune this week, but every time I think I am ready, he asks another question about mods I may require.
My question to those of you that are running siamese code is: what mods do I need to either do or have done to the MS2extra.
I have one of Jeans 4 chanel injector boards on the way.
I have one LC1 that we use on our Turbo Mini, so I am ordering another - Do I need mods made to the MS2 for dual lamda input?
I have a full Edis setup ready to install, which jean told me I cannot run with siamese code, so, what drivers do I need to run the edis coil packs in waste spark config?
Are modifications need to the ms2extra for using a hall sensor for the CAM sensor, as well as having a VR crank sensor.

I am struggling to find this information dotted around the various forums.

Thanks for your help

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

If you are going to just use it on an NA 998, then it is much simpler than you think.

You will only need two injector drivers, as you will not need to stage larger injectors in at higher loads. Two MPi injectors will provide enough fueling. Hence, you will not need Jean's Quad driver board. Sorry Jean.

You do not have to feed the LC-1 into the ECU at all, but you can use it for auto-tune and close loop fueling if you want. I just use two widebands for datalogging and manual setup adjustment. But, you do need two wideband displays and a means of datalogging the outputs along with the ECU data, so it may well be worth while adapting the ECU for two wideband inputs.

Forget EDIS, just get the ECU configured to drive wasted spark coils. This will just involve two ingition drivers.

You will need to get the board configured to take a hall type cam sensor, but this is easy as there is a hall sensor circuit on the board already. DIYAutotune should be able to do this. I've done it my own way. I'll post the sketch later.

I'm planning on writing this up in the next few months to bring all the information together in one place.

It really is quite simple now that we have cracked the code issues.

Edited by Paul S on 10th Oct, 2009.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

First, are you ordering a kit or one made up - If made up, virtually half the parts need removing for the sequential version of Jeans code (ie, using four injector drivers) because the standard injector driver setup on the board uses 4 cpu outputs (2 for injection and 2 for PWM on low z injectors) and Jean reassigns the two PWM outputs as the other injectors. I've probably explained the reason why very badly and Jean will correct me but it's why you have ordered a 4 chanel board from Jean and virtually every component on the heats sink (and lots of others) simply aren't required !!! Paul S has a photo of one so built showing how bare the board is.

Other mods - for four chanel sequential, a small mod to the cpu daughterboard (to access the PWM outputs and divert them elsewhere).

And, as you have already surmised, you need two coil drive chips (and a couple of resistors) to drive the coilpack direct (the most the board would be built with is one chip and even that's an option so it's best to do it with two new matched ones).

And if you want to use a Hall switch (or optical switch as I did) the bits are available on the board providing you are using VR for the crank, but need wiring slightly differently.

Finally, dual lambda - hadn't even considered it..... The reason those of us persuing this are using two widebands is to map the code to deal with the charge robbing. ie, two in car displays and data logging to watch inner and outer cylinders repectively. My feedback to the MS is from a third wideband on the common part of the exhaust. Well, that's a bit arbitrary as I haven't quite finished welding the shell to actuall fit the exhaust yet...... but that's how it's all wired up ready !!!

So, back to the beginning, I would advise a kit, in fact just a partial kit as you need so few of the components.

I have spares of virtually all the components now (as order quantities from the likes of RS or Farnell are often in 10s) so could let you have them at cost plus postage.

Hope that helps.

EDIT - Paul was obviously writing at the same time as me - I think the only difference is he is saying don't bother with the extra two chanels so my answer is on the basis you wanted to.....

Edited by Rod S on 10th Oct, 2009.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Circuit for hall type cam sensor:

Attachments:

17.28kb

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Fair point, I just read the question without thinking !!!

Having said that, if he already has one of Jean's driver boards on the way, you can presumably save the same awful lot of components on the mainboard (and most of the heatsink) even if using Jean's board just for two chanels. Plus more space in the box for fitting the ignition drivers and any of the other "Extra" bits that might appeal later.

At least I assume so as Jean was selling the four chanel boards (at least in their P&H format) long before the staged/sequential injection version of the code.....

Edited by Rod S on 10th Oct, 2009.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Thanks for the input. Very helpful.
I guess I should have said that I am running 998 NA at the moment, which I want to install the fuel injection in to test/ experiement. I am currently building another mini, which is to have a 1293cc with a rotrex C30-64 SC, so eventually I will want the staged injection.

Matt at diyautotune.com asked - "...how many spark outputs will you need, and do they need to be 5 volt logic level or high current (BIP373) spark outputs?..."
Am I righ t in assuming the High current for the edis coil packs in wasted spark?

Paul - I saw a thread of yours on here with a modified Dizzy for the CAM signal. Can you tell me what the hall sensor shown is off of?
Really appreciate the help.

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

Edited by Rod S on 10th Oct, 2009.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

The Hall Sensor is a Siemens HKZ101 from Jaycar.

http://www.jaycarelectronics.co.uk/product...es&Keyword1=KJ8

Edited by Paul S on 10th Oct, 2009.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

I don't have much to add since both Paul and Rod have covered the subject well. The only thing is that unless you have another way of logging the data, I would wire both WBO2 sensors to the MS. This will be for logging purposes and to have all the data in the same log and time scale. You won't want to have fueling controlled from both. And this should be a minor additional circuit with a couple of resistors and a capacitor and some wires to link it to the DB37 connector and to the CPU.

And DIYAutotune doesn't carry my 4-channel board so they won't build a unit with it. They may be able to do a partial build with only what's needed and with the MS2 mod but I haven't heard about them doing that. And I'm not sure they would credit the unneeded parts.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Well, on the 998 Turbo, now that all we log on the Innovate Logworks MTS chain is the two widebands, I'm going to ditch it and log it all through Tuner Studio.

When we were logging EGTs, CHTs etc, using the Innovate was the best way to do it.

We are going to mod the MS board to input a second wideband, AEM this time.

One reason is that after all the abuse, the Innovate LM-1 is giving us grief. Only a dodgy connection on the serial link, but enough to create problems getting a decent log.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

I'm glad this came up yesterday, as it prompted us to sort this out, plus we were having grief with the Innovate stuff yesterday doing some fine tuning.

So last night Sturgeo fitted the input circuit for the second O2 input onto the proto board. Connected up to JS4 on the processor and SPR2 on the DB37.

Fitted the AEM gauge and set the LC-1 to give the same output of the AEM, 0-5v for 10-20 AFR.

Removed the LM-1 and calibrated everything. Told the MS to use dual widebands on did a log.

That didn't work because we did not tell Tuner Studio to log the second AFR. So sorted that.

Jobs a goodun.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

I'm sort of glad too, but for a completely different reason....

It made me go and sort out my spreadsheet of all the part numbers (DigiKey vs RS vs Farnell) as Graham PM'd me to ask what components I had if he went down the partial kit route, and I've found an anomaly in the Megasquirt build information.

When I downloaded the BOM from the internet at the time of building it, C31 was 0.1µF (the BOM is still on my hard disk).
On the current version on the web the value is 0.001µF.
On the schematics on the web the value is 0.22µF

Interestingly it is on the input to the VR circuitry where I always have to adjust one of the pots between the JimStim and the real engine.
I wonder which is the right value.....

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

The only down side is that the AEM gauge is reading leaner than the LM-1 did

Need to do some more tuning.

We have used 0.001µf for C31 in our latest build. Not sure as what is fitted on the 998 as it is back in the car.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Did you just swap one of the Innovates for an AEM or both ?

And did anything look suspicious on the Free Air Calibration ?

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

We are now running an LC-1 and an AEM gauge.

That's the thing, the AEM gauge is pre-calibrated. One reason why I've avoided them in the past. Just wire it in, fit it and away you go.

The spread of AFRs is leaner outer cylinders which may be due to much cooler temperatures. Pulse widths are now 8.5mS, single pulse mode, which is higher than I've ever seen before. Maxed at 8.0mS in the Summer.

It's probably more due to maxing out on the injection window on the outer cylinders. Denser air is getting in, but no more fuel can get in.

Edited by Paul S on 11th Oct, 2009.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

The BOM should have the actual values used by the vendors in their kits. There is some lag in adjusting the schematics (if it is ever done). The value for the components in the VR circuit have changed quite a few times since the V3 board was introduced. This was done to correct some issues but the problem is that it seems that none of the values used seem to be the best for all cases. But it seems that the latest ones are the best compromise for most people. I must say I'm not a big fan of that circuit.

I'm also not a big fan of the AEM wideband controller but it's not based on anything concrete. However, having 2 different controllers is not the best thing since they will not react the same way and even though they both should show the same AFR if correctly calibrated, the reality is that probably neither will show the exact value.

What is more important is that they both react the same way in a consistent and repeatable manner and that will be very difficult to have with 2 very different controllers. And even if you get them to read the same initially, they may not react the same to the changing conditions of the sensors themselves.

If you can use the same type of controller on both sensors, I think you'll save yourself some headaches.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

I agree Jean, it is not a good idea to mix them, but I've had a few issues with Innovate stuff recently and need to change to something reliable.

Actually, the AEM was not reading that much leaner. It was just that the MegalogViewer was displaying the two AFRs on different scales which just made it look a lot worse.

I've posted the log plot in my test section. They do seem to be reacting similarly. Maybe just the calibration issue.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Hopefully the below makes sense and hopefully I can get some good feedback/ advice on my plans. Sorry its a biggy:
So, After ALOT of help from Rod - for which I want to say a massive thank you - I now have most of the parts I require for the initial build of my 998 injected engine.
I purchased the Megasquirt 2 partial kit from Glens garage, along with: a GM coolant temp sensor and wiring tail; GM intake air temp sensor and wiring tail, pre- built wiring loom (though I may live to regret that); Megasquirt 2 case and heat sink.
I have the 4 channel driver board from Jean, but forgot the JimStim board and CPU when I was ordering first time, so that is in transit somewhere.
Rod has helped me with sorting the components necessary to complete the Megasquirt and JimStim build according to the modifications required to run Siamese code with the 4 channel injector/ ignition board, IACV and hall sensor second trigger as per Pauls earlier post in this thread.
I've started building the megasquirt, but now stopped in accordance with the megamanual assembly guide, waiting for the JimStim board so I can build that and then test the power circuit of the megasquirt before continuing.
As for the engine, I have a 998 out of my project car which I have had running with Dizzy and carb, just to make sure it goes properly before I do the conversion.
For the inlet, I have a standard MPI Manifold and fuel rail, which will need some adapting for the GM intact air temp sensor. Either that or I buy the standard MPI one. (I bought the GM one because the megasquirt is calibrated as default for it, or so I understand).
Continued..

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

I have an FSE injection fuel regulator with pressure gauge and an injection fuel filter. Also, the guy at FSE/ Conroe/ SyTech supplied me with the MPI fuel rail adaptor. This is a connector which replaces the standard MPI fuel regulator (retained in the fuel rail with a spring clip), turning the opening into a "barbed" type fuel pipe connector. In fact I have two of these adaptors -Initially one adaptor will be used to go directly to the new regulator, as I won’t do the staged injection mod on the 998 incarnation of the system. I hope to use the MPI inlet for the stage injection, having the secondary injectors pointing up the inlet tracts from the back of the manifold, although I'm sure this will be a point of debate. It may be that the baulk head needs modifying for this, but the project car is just a shell at present, so what’s a bit more work when it's already stripped down? The Idea when I get to staged injection is that I use a second MPI fuel rail and the second MPI regulator adaptor, connecting the fuel rails using what were their original regulator ports. The fuel can then return to the FSE regulator via what would have been the secondary fuel rail's inlet port.
I am using a Hyundi Accent TB for the first trial. It has a 46mm Throat and the TPS already on it.
The Test fuel pump is out of the same Hyundi Accent (Bosch pump). Hopefully it will replace the SPI pump in the tank I bought way back- not realising it was the SPI version. I have not looked at this yet, so I need to confirm that the pump is up to the job as well..
The injectors I have bought from racetronics in Canada, they are Siemens 63Lbs/ Hr (26deg cone pattern) and 80Lbs/Hr (pencil stream), High Z - two of each. They use the USCAR electrical connectors, so I bought some of those when I bought the injectors.
Continued...

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

I have to make an inlet pipe and flange to bolt to the MPI inlet manifold, then hose clip a 45deg elbow to it, to which I can connect the TB, then probably just use a cone filter that we have knocking about the workshop.
I have a trigger-wheels.co.uk 36-1 crank wheel and VR sensor bracket.
VR sensor is from a Ford as is the coil pack (EDIS)
Rover 200 fuse box/ relay board which I plan to eventually use for the project car. Wiring it now for the test will save time later.. I hope.
2 Innovate LC-1's. One I final bought for our Turbo build 18 months ago and another I have just got, from ebay - £149 + £8.50p&p New in the box. He has/ had 4 left when I bought mine, last Saturday. This worked out around the same price as importing from the US, just without the customs hassles..
The CAM sensor is the Siemens Hall sensor, as per Pauls post earlier in this thread. I'll get it going on the test engine by modifying the dizzy, then think about how to mount it to the cam drive sprocket for the boosted engine. If that’s even possible.. I had to buy 2 of these hall sensors from Jaycars to satisfy their minimum order level. So if anyone needs one, It's available.
I found a thermostat housing spacer in our pile of bits, it’s not an MPI one and I've not a clue where it came from, but Hopefully I can modify it to accept the GM coolant temp sensor, although the thread on GM sensor is fairly large. If not, I'll need to get an MPI coolant temp sensor and the MPI thermostat housing spacer.
I think that the last thing on my list for the 998 engine conversion is an IACV, which I have not had a chance to source yet, but another visit to the local scrap yard should sort that.
Eventually I will buy the LCdash from diyautotune so that I don't need to worry about separate gauges and senders/ sensors. Hopefully it means that I can do basic mods and monitor the engine without the need for carrying a laptop. I just need to investigate whether it works with the modified ms code.
The plan is to get this running on the road before Christmas, in my daily drive, which is currently a 998 NA clubman. This time frame is work dependent though, and may be a bit too optimistic.
Once the Megasquirt board is completed I can do my testing with the JimStim. Whilst I'm waiting on the JimStim board, I'm getting the test engine prepared with the fuel system, timing setup, etc..
The next step will be running up the engine with EFI installed, test some more, then when I'm happy with it, I'll take a week off, get the clubman off the road and transfer the test engine to the car.
"Just like that" he says.. Well thats the plan..

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

Arrrgh.. Sorry about the split posts. The post preview only showed bits of the post, so I thought I had to reduce the size of each post..

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

Great stuff. You seem to have covered most things.

Couple of points. I use the MPi sensor without problem. I can let you have some sensor calibration settings that seem to work.

I would also use the Mpi TB if you already have.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Good stuff.

Getting it up and running on a 998 with just 2 injectors should be relatively easy.

When you get to the boosted engine and staged injection, I do have some reservations about how you intend to physically install the second injectors, but without photos it is hard to visualise.

I suggest you set up a "build thread" in the "show us yours" section and post photos as you go and keep the technical stuff in this section.

Last comment, you've avoided making much mention of your choice of "charger" for the boosted engine but one thing that does occur to me is that you will have a much simpler dual wideband setup than Paul or I....

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???