MS hardware configuration
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I've searched but can't find a definite answer but there was this..

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Rod,

If you are planning to use the Siamesed code or any other MS code that needs to know crank position, then you have to connect the VR sensor direct to the MS.

Hence you do not/cannot use the EDIS unit and you have to drive the wasted spark coil pack directly.

With regard the additional I/O, I suggest that you go through the MSExtra Manuals and see if there is anything you want.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Ooops,

Shot myself in the foot again - I'd forgotten that EDIS needs the VR itself and doesn't take the position from MS.
I've built the MS as VR input (did a quick test with it jumpered as Hall/optical as the standard Stim doesn't replicate VR then rewired it for VR) so it's now obvious that I need to build the outputs with two VB921s...

Regarding the additional I/O, I wasn't thinking about any of the fancy stuff I could have, but where the development for "A" series might go and if any of you were already thinking of what else might be needed, for example Jean mentioned on another post that a cam sensor was a possibility for the future.

If anything like that is even a slight possibility, I'd rather incorporate the circuitry now.

I'm a long way behind you all, but your comments are appreciated !!!

Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Actually, I think that the cam sensor is a good idea, not sure how it would be configured as an input though. Could be a second VR or a switch type input.

Have you considered boost control or knock sensing? Also launch or NOS control if you intend racing.

Tach ouput may be a good idea. I've just used a MPi tach on one of the coil output, but if you want to use a standard 4 cyl Tach then best fit the tacho output now.

Edited by Paul S on 5th Feb, 2008.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Cam sensor is the one I was thinking of as I have a feeling it "may" ultimately become necessary. I'm thinking it would be a simple Hall/switch input (it doesn't need to be that accurate with VR on the crank) so I'm going to try and get my head around the V3.0 board schematics to see if the Hall circuitry that is not used when you jumper for VR, can actually be used as a second input.

Boost control, maybe.
Knock sensing - I thought the concensus was it can't be made to work on an A series because of all the other mechanical noise.
Too old for racing......
Tacho though, good point, hadn't thought about that one!

Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Yes it can with the right jumpers to the CPU and to a free DB37 pin.

http://www.jbperf.com/

I think that I need to do the following:

Connect OptoOut to JS10

Feed 12v into the opto isolator U3 through a 1k resistor.

Connect Pin 3 of the DB37 to SPR1 and SPR1 to XG1.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

There are a few different configurations for Hall sensors. The manual shows the different ones which depend on the sensor you have.

But, as you say, you need OptoOut to JS10 and SPR1 to XG1 (assuming this is what you need for your Hall sensor). And SP1 is already connected to pin 3 of the DB37.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Edited by Rod S on 18th Jun, 2008.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Thanks.

I think how you wire in the hall sensor depends on what type it is.

If it is a switch to earth then the MS needs to supply some voltage and you connect the sensor to SPR1, Pin3 of the DB37.

If the hall sensor outputs a voltage then it can be connected to Optoin and you need to jumper XG1 to XG2.

I've ordered a Siemens HKZ101 from Jaycar and have spend an hour modifying an old dizzy to fit it.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

So....

Does this mean you are looking for a cam input too ???

I only thought I "might" need one so am planning ahead (!!!)

I was intending to use the base cut off a dizzy and one of these
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/4550880.html

Or similar.

Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Yes, I think that we will need a cam signal to get the Siamese code working correctly.

See my post on VEs in the tech section.

I'm still trying to get it to work without but it's just not close enough to trust it under boosted conditions.

I'm going to swap the wideband sensors around to check the readings before I post the results, just in case the instruments are not giving accurate answers.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Good,

I'll look at the other thread later.

I kind of thought the cam position might be required ultimately (as per my comments in other threads) but hoped it would be nice if it wasn't.

The trouble (frustration ???) is I'm too far behind to help at the moment.

Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Right,

I've checked my notes and wiring more thoroughly (and edited a mistake above as a result...)

I've used pin 5 of the main connector which is SPR3 and connected it to OptoIN.
OptoOUT to JS10
XG2 to XG1

I built the board as per 50(a) of the build manual, ie, D1 and D2 replaced with straight jumpers, C12 and C30 omitted.

According to my own notes, I "might" want to change the value of R12 depending on whether I power the opto switch from the MS or externally.

I did even consider deleting U3 completely as the optoswitch I'll be using is the same configuration but thought it was a bit of an unknown, so a bit risky...

Is there any particular reason you went for a Hall switch ?

BTW, looking at the datasheet for the HKZ101, it looks like you power it with the red and black wires and it will then output a votage on the green when the vane passes through. (the opposite to my optoswitch, as I need a "gap" to pass through.)

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

The way that you are doing it will require a 12v signal through the opto switch.

I think that my board uses SPR3 for the second ignition driver output. I am going to use SPR1.

I'm not sure if the hall sensor gives a 12v spike or just grounds the signal wire. I'll test it when it arrives.

The key thing is that the spare opto isolator circuit can be used for the second sensor with little modification.

I went for the Hall Sensor as it was recommended on the MS site somewhere.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Yes, I will require either 12V or 5V through my optoswitch that's why I'm undecided whether to power it from the MS board or from the main loom.
I've wired my ignition outputs independant of the BD37 connector but I've connected SPR1/2 for the CanBus (just in case I ever find a use for it !!!) hence the choice of SPR3 in my case.
It looks like the Hall sensor you've chosen gives 12V out when the vane passes through but, as you say, easy enough to test once you get it.
I don't think there is any doubt the spare circuitry can be used, but be careful how U3 is powered - earlier you said feed it 12V through a 1K resistor, I assume on the presumption the Hall switch would have a "ground" as its output, but, in any event, the way the mainboard is wired the XG1-XG2 is connecting the optoisolator cathode to ground and R12 already exists as the current limiting resistor.
The circuit diagram which I think you have looked at in the "Extra" manual, assumes you are building a completely seperate new circuit, and it is the opposite way around to the installed one if you see what I mean...

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Yes, whichever way the hall switch operates will determine how I mod the board.

Just need to treat the opto-isolator as a relay. Power to one side and earth on the other to operate it. Just need a resistor to drop the voltage passing through.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

You've got me going again anyway...

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

I'm using the equivalent of a Siemens HKZ101 Hall sensor that is now made by Chenyang and is a HME301 as shown in this document:

http://www.bbautomacao.com/pdfs/Vane_Sensors.pdf

From what I can make out this outputs a voltage when the vane passes through the gap. I struggle with the terminology, what does "open collector" mean?

In this case I will use Rod's circuit above, I think.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

i spent ages dicking around the other day until i realised my hall sensor "pulls down"

its well worth sticking a led and resistor on the signal line to check this.

WTF does "pull down" mean.

I'm a simple mechanical engineer - help please.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

lol,

it means the the wire from the hall sensor to the ecu is normally at 12v, and when it detects somthing it pulls the voltage down to 0v turning the led on in the opto-isolator.

ie current is running from the ecu to the sensor rather than the sensor sending current to the ecu.

and no oe is to mention electron vs conventional current flow OKAY!!

http://www.jbperf.com/

I couldn't actually see the internal circuit diagram on the datasheet until Adobe had downloaded 6 million foreign fonts......

Open collector just means the collector isn't already biased, BUT, unlike my chosen opto switch where the emitter and collector are two seperate wires completely independant of the power supply, these Hall switches are three wire devices (power +, power -, and outut) so if they are open collector, the emmiter side of the collector/emitter junction must be connected internally to 0v, in which case a pull-up resistor should be connected to the output to make sure it actually is 12v when it is not being pulled to 0v (as per page 3 of the datasheet).

From what I read of the original HKZ101, its output goes high when the vane passes through the gap, what this really means is that it ceases to be pulled low, the pull-up resistor ensures this is a proper "high".

I'm assuming your "vane" for a Hall switch is 95% nothing and a small bit of metal that goes through, ie, exactly the opposite of an optical wheel which is 95% blocking the light and a small lack of metal (the notch) goes through to operate the switch.

However, newer Hall switches seem to be the other way around, ie output goes low when the vane passes through. In either case, the pull-up resistor is to ensure the high is actually high.

Best thing, as Joe says, wire it up to 12v on the red/black, put a pull-up resistor from 12V to the green wire and see what the output actually does as your vane goes through.

My diagram doesn't have a pull-up resistor because the opto switches give me collector and emmiter completely independant of the power supply to the internal led (ie, just like relay contacts)so I am using it literally as a switch.

On reflection though, I shall probably add a pull-DOWN resistor to the emmitter of my optoswitch just in case the leakage current of the opto-switch is enough to operate the opto-isolator inside the MS.

EDIT - or I might redesign it to mimic the hall switch, ie emitter to ground, pull-up resistor to the collector and collector out to the MS, but this would give me the opposite output to you, but the same as the later hall switches.

Rod.

Edited by Rod S on 26th Jun, 2008.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???