SC 5 Port EFI testing...the results are in....interesting!
Turbo Mini Forums

Just to clarify there is no reason this set up can't be used for forced induction work, suck through or forced- it is an electronic carb after all.

JK

If Carling made Mini engines
it would probably be like this one!

John,

Is the shaft sealed? Also, you mentioned that it was working with a continuous pulse. Can you elaborate on this? Did you mean that it was pulsing in an asynchronous manner as fast as possible? And will that always result in at least 4 pulses per cycle?

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Jean - the itb is sealed yes - Paul - the system will provide no worse a distubution than a carb - obviously all of these systems need to be mapped correctly - not saying you can't map correctly I'll point out!

JK

If Carling made Mini engines
it would probably be like this one!

John, if you think that it just involves mapping, then you clearly do not understand the issues.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Which is also why I asked about the injection strategy. Too few pulses and fuel distribution goes to hell.

http://www.jbperf.com/

I understand the issue of using injection, but surely this is just acting as a electronic carb? You won't get as good a result as using port injection, but surely no worse than carb? Doesn't Graham Harvey use a similar system to very good effect on his car? Has anybody tested the results of a turbo engine running a carb, to see the balance of afr's.

Paul - If you don't want to play nicely - please don't play at all thanks - this isn't a pre school playground.

Starmag - your comments are correct and the world seems to keep spinning.

JK

If Carling made Mini engines
it would probably be like this one!

A carburetor will add fuel as a constant stream, so every bit of air that goes into the engine has close to the correct amount of fuel mixed with it. With the 5 Port, there are things going on in the inlet manifold where some of the fuel sticks to the walls. This causes a slight imbalance between the inner and outer cylinders, but not enough to cause real problems.

Any sort of injection system delivers fuel in pulses. An injector is nothing more than a soleniod that is switched on and off rapidly. Hence the fuel is mixed with the air in slugs.

If you have sized the injectors correctly, then they will be firing for a fairly constant amount of time for each cycle, but the period of each cycle will be rpm dependant. If you size the injectors to be open for 75% of the time at the top end of the rev range, then they will be operating at least than that the rest of the time. So you do not get anywhere near a constant stream of air mixed with the correct amount of fuel like a carb.

The best strategy would be to fire the injectors 4 times a cycle. Then you have a chance of getting close. But you would need to be sure by using two widebands and not EGT measurement.

Graham Harvey does have a similar system working very well, but it has taken a lot of development on the Emerald rollers. Even then it does not make as much power as the TT2 on less boost. I asked Graham how it worked at the RR day, but I got the impression that DW is keeping it to himself.

The main problem with this, in my opinion is that it is being marketed with insufficient test data to back up the claims of suitability for Forced Induction and without due regard for the potential damage to engines. It ranks with the M45 supercharger conversions in my opinion.

Edited by Paul S on 29th Nov, 2010.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Paul - once again you are assuming we have not covered these areas or know what we are talking about- as an engineer assumption is not an option. For your information we are using 4 pulses per cycle and we are achieveing excellent mixture density even at part throttle with nominal opening periods. Like I have said in an earlier post we have nothing to prove to the aftermarket from an engine calibration point of view we have run engines of far more complexity than the mini - try a v6 common rail diesel with sequential turbo-s, but obviously the enthusiastic diy-er thinks he knows better and can try to make his point in a very aggressive and public manner - the perfect keyboard warrior.

JK

If Carling made Mini engines
it would probably be like this one!

John, just shows us the evidence that you have achieved what you say and we will shower you with applause.

No need for the personal insults. I thought keyboard warriors didn't spend 3 years developing 5 port injection and publish all the data?

EDIT: John, just rang your office but you have obviously left for the day. I'll try again in the morning so that we can resolve this privately.

Edited by Paul S on 29th Nov, 2010.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

i dont want to take sides, love the product for what it is, john, the most important factor.....does it sound as good as a weber though? :)

but...i can also understand pauls point of view entirely, and sympathise as john seems to be elusive and not entirely forth coming with a conclusive responce

i can only think of one way to settle this, and it seems sensible considering the points paul has raised, for john publish the afr results on the inner and outer cylinders...

...and remember, till next time, take care of yourself and each other

"Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun"

"did you know you can toast potato waffles?"

[quote=joeybaby83,29th Nov, 2010]i can only think of one way to settle this, and it seems sensible considering the points paul has raised, for john publish the afr results on the inner and outer cylinders...]

I have another idea..... Give a kit to miniwilliams. If his motor then makes even more bhp and does not hole a piston you will sell many of these kits I would think. What cheap advertising, the most powerful A series in the world, fueled by Specialist Components fuel injection injection system

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

On 29th Nov, 2010 Paul S said:

On 29th Nov, 2010 TurboDave said:

On 29th Nov, 2010 joeybaby83 said:

i can only think of one way to settle this

Talent Show?

I like that idea.

Bill Oddie vs Ant'n'Dec

Edited by Sprocket on 29th Nov, 2010.

Reminds me of the Fab incident ...

Valid but not pleasant to read ...

Can someone post some boobies or shiny alloy stuffs to reconnect with TM spirit ?

Rusty by nature

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00KM53yZi2A

Here you go Paul

http://www.canems.co.uk/casestudy/1380inj.php

These guys have been using this set-up with very good results.

Si

I drill holes in everything..!

http://www.jbperf.com/

I think you all need to get a grip, if john wants to build it like that let him, if they all blow up then fair enough its johns buisiness that will suffer, if they prove to be great then his buisiness will be booming.

Rick

Doesn't quite satisfy either of your requests Advantage.

But it was an attempt never the less.

Edited by Sam on 29th Nov, 2010.

All interesting stuff this, it has taken a lot of time to get my car to run as it does now using the injection set up, there were times when I wished I'd gone with a carb , but now it's reasonably well sorted any modifications I make to the engine spec can easily be delt with a quick visit to a rolling road with a laptop, I would imagine with a carb it can take considerably more time and effort modifying the needle, although I haven't got a comparison I would imagine the drivability of my car would be better and thats what is most important to me, anything that helps get 160 bhp and 165ftllbs of torque through 10" A008s has got to be good.
I must agree with the statement though it takes a lot of effort to equal the SU.

I think John is getting un-fair treatment.

I has one advantage you will be able to buy all the the items from one place, you wont need a soldering iron, and you will get technical support.

For certain applications it might be a great option. mine being one of them.

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!