Project "Marginal gains..."
Turbo Mini Forums

It was 104 kg

blimey .

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

I love the 2.3 duratec in my daily hack... I hear they make 200hp on TB's alone, but as long as its running I'm not going to change it lol

yes dave ,this one is 280 .

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

wow, that's some going!
Did the 2.3 make it over there, or are they imported?

personally with all the work put in and an XE seems a little bit of a waste, there are some pretty awesome 1.6 turbo engines out there crying for big power :)

Drives
-Ford S-max Mk2 Ecoboost
-Rover 100 VVC #2 - track project

Searching is all you need on TurboMinis

i dont know dave , its all cosworthed up to the hilt .

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 18th Dec, 2014.

I have had the RF Suspension on for the first time to check for clearance and mock up some inner arch liners (which have slipped down in this photo)



I think the rad position is the final one, still using the old rad I got off ebay specifically for this purpose

The front panel is fubared as I have cut it up for so many different configurations that I will have to get another as this is completely out of shape, especially the grille opening and the lower part of the valance.

It will all need ducting to suit the angled rad



Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 9th Jul, 2017.

it just occured to me , you could, as a try it out sort of thing, run wuth no intercooler at all!!! shock horror , steve just fainted lol,

on less than 10psi ,intake temps shouldn't be too bad , and it may make more than enough power for you . a little water injection would also intercool a bit .

just thinking ouvre le boit.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

+1 for the rad position

Yes i moved to the darkside

Instagram @jdm_brett

Have you considered a rad from a modern superbike?

I've been looking at GSXR1300 rads for a future project as they are quite large and curved so would almost wrap around a modern gearbox.

Really liking this build, you've got some real skills.

However assuming the box that the rad is sitting on is acting as mock-up for the IC, is there enough clearance between the down pipe & the front valance/grill to run a hose/pipe from the outlet of the turbo to the IC?

EDIT: My grammar is getting worse and I don't think my grandpa is much better

Edited by Rob H on 30th Dec, 2014.

Hey Robert,

You tell me this now !!!

Seriously though, I want to try and get something that looks like a credible IC and with a modicum of airflow to it, but to try and understand the compromise better - is there any t'internet resource which ponders inlet temp / boost pressure. What is the typical temp drop across a half decent IC (when things are considered to be working sensibly), just to try and understand the inlet temps with and without an IC for a given boost psi. For instance I always use a 10 deg drop across a water cooling rad as a measure of things working OK but don't have a similar yardstick for a boosted lump IC for a given boost psi.

My wooden IC as shown below the water rad is 300mm wide x 180mm deep x 50mm thick (core size) but 40mm of the 180mm deep is below / shrouded by the valance and will need air from a vent cut into the valance to make use of this area.

Brett,

TBH, there is only over the gearbox or in front of it - (Assuming you want to fit inside a std length front...) unless you do some serious bulkhead removal / reshaping a la 'Project Binky' to get a full front mount and I want to keep what looks like a std Mini bulkhead. I think the water cooling will potentially be worse with this current rad position even with ducting but it allows some of the IC to be front mounted so hopefully a workable compromise.

Most of my time has been spent trying to package a properly ducted RF inner arch mounted IC with the previous front mounted rad config I had but the fact that the turbo inlet air filter occupied the same space mean't I couldn't find a compromise I was happy with.

Tupers,

I went around in circles for a while looking at rad sizes and shapes, I spoke to Serck Motorsport who do Motorsport / Motorcyle shaped / curved rads but they kept directing me back to car based units. Plus the only real way to try is to buy a rad of the type your considering and I just had to make a decision to progress. So right or wrong I am going to work around the Honda 'half width' type rads.

If you have any working drawings of the superbike rad/s you are considering I'd be interested

Rob,

Thanks, yes physically there is enough room, (I would always want an IC pipe to be further away from the DP but hey, it's around 10mm currently) I have been mocking up with 60mm O.D. IC pipe instead of the intended 2 1/2" (64mm) but it looks workable. I still have the very real caveat that the front panel has been tampered with something chronic (I hadn't anticipated Minispares Oldbury shutting up shop for the whole of the holiday as I planned to get a new unmolested one to try) so i will reserve judgement.

It's not a very clear image but you get some idea of the gap between the front panel and the DP at the bottom near the valance area, you can just see the silicon hose I was using for the mock up. I can also if necessary push the IC pipework into the valance area behind where the bumper sits if there is less room when I get a new front panel.



Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 9th Jul, 2017.

Have a play ..

http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml

Edited by robert on 18th Oct, 2017.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Cheers Robert,

That's perfect, just the sort of 'model' to give me an idea of what effects what.

I have made a few assumptions I am sure are incorrect;

When increasing the boost pressure I left the compressor efficiency at 75% throughout and I imagine it drops with increase in boost

Also I left the VE at the same 95% level.

I used these for all tests:

95% VE
75% Compressor efficiency
13.3 AFR
0.52 SFC
50% IC efficiency (I assume this is the lower end of what is possible?)
0 psi IC pressure drop (I know not realistic but left it to be consistent)

The VE and SFC used gave me close to the NA HP and I left them at that.

And went 0 > 5 > 10 > 14.7 psi with and without IC.

Has anyone logged typical pressure and temperature delta across a Mini installed IC, just to get an idea of what is a sensible figure? Are we talking a couple of psi drop and say 30 deg / 50% temp delta or way off.

Also its predicting 380cc/min injectors for circa 250 hp if that sounds plausible (85% duty cycle)

Very interesting though...

Bonne année

Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 31st Dec, 2014.

comp eff will get higher as the boost rises until it gets over the pk then drops .the compressor map shows this , with flow along the bottom of the map ,and pressure ratio up the side ,vagueley use 10 lbs/hr per 100 bhp , on the bottom line . and 15 psi would be denoted by the number 2.0 on the y axis ....eg ,atmos plus 1 bar .

ve will vary with the torque curve of the engine ,peaking at maybe 10% or higher at pk trq than at pk bhp ...this is very engine design dependent.

i would use 12.5:1 afr ,and even this is often seen as too lean by some turbo tuners ...richer the cooler cylinder up to a point .


0.55 bsfc is also safer , but your setting would be fine i think .

is drop i always assume 1 to 2 psi . i flowed the ic on the spud on my flowbench so i could assess the 189 cfm @28'' effect .




when dynoing the astra i had 45c outlet temp from the water air ic , the inlet temp would be easy to work out from 10 psi ,16c turbo inlet temp ,and 72% turbo eff on the map at my power and boost . but the airflow through the chargecooler rad was not replicant of the flow on the rd at say 70 mph .


bonne anne'e also !

regards
robert

Edited by robert on 31st Dec, 2014.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

I came to same conclusion with the rad, one issue i can see potentially causing an issue is during hard acceleration, the coolant may be slightly reluctant to flow 'forward and down'
But hopefully a good header tank layout and minimum air in the system will solve this
At the minute ( and im not far from driving) i am hoping the over all flow around the engine will keep it going ( what comes out top of engine must go back into bottom some how)

Edited by Brett on 31st Dec, 2014.

Yes i moved to the darkside

Instagram @jdm_brett

Sorry I haven't read through all the posts but have you thought about a charge cooler. Yes there messier to plumb in etc but it could be placed anywhere , even up the back of the dash !

Yes i moved to the darkside

Instagram @jdm_brett

Cheers Robert,

OK, So with a slight revision of the input data;

SFC - 0.55
VE - 100%
12.5:1 - AFR
Compressor eff - 75% - all tests
IC pressure drop - 2 psi (Obv 0 psi for no IC tests)

Two graphs, brown = 5 psi, blue = 10 psi (psi @ manifold)

Only 3 points on each 'curve';

0% Efficiency - no intercooler / 0 psi pressure drop (I know some will be lost due to inlet pipe work)
50% Efficiency - Seems a low figure compared to most figures used but based on me only being able to package a small and not ideally placed IC...
75% Efficiency - Nearer to a typical figure?

Both 50% & 75% data points have a 2 psi IC pressure drop assumption

The 83 Deg C inlet temp with no IC sounds a little scarey, hence your water cooling suggestion I guess?




I am sure there are plenty of flaws in what I have done, also with no IC and high inlet temp maybe there would need to be other additional changes such as 'take some ignition out' to prevent Det or run a lower AFR to help cool which would maybe make the delta between IC an no IC even bigger? I dunno but it gives a very general idea I hope?

10 psi with 50% IC eff predicts 250 hp
14.7 psi with 50% IC predicts 295 hp

So less than 1 bar and a 50% eff IC install should give the 250 - 275hp expectation.

The turbo I am using gives 320 hp in it's OEM installation on a 2 litre, I can't find the boost level this specific OEM model runs to achieve this but I also can't find any Impreza's that run more than 1 bar from the factory so I'll assume it's not too far from this figure?

Rick,

I have looked at the PWR charge coolers especially because it would allow me route all of the inlet pipework inside the RH inner wing away from the water rad and pipework - but it's the same problem finding a home for the charge cooler water / air heat exchanger plus all the additional stuff / weight, water reservoir / pipework, but still not 100% decided as being able to completely seperate the two systems is very appealing.

Brett,

I hear all sorts of strange stuff about rads being angled being a bad thing, there is no problem with the rad angle effecting the internal water flow and having to flow down and forward. I have used plenty of rads tilted both fowards and backwards, above and below 45 degrees without a problem.

Obviously if you have a front mounted vertical rad directly in the grill opening then the high pressure air is forced through the rad and if you tilt the rad back without any ducting to prevent air flowing over and hence not through the rad then it will be less efficient but a simple entry duct resolves that.

Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 9th Jul, 2017.

Hi,

what turbo inlet temp ?

i would expect maybe 100 to 110 ve at pk trq , but less ,say 90 to 98, at pk power.

re no ic ,

i'm guessing that engine , with throttle bodies and a good exhaust at 175 nat asp .

i would expect around 230 bhp from 5 psi ,optimised..

so if you were looking for 200 at wheels ,(as per earlier in thread) then that would work with 30 bhp losses.

and 5 psi might need to be 6psi with no ic but would not be so high in the inlet temps ,that was where i was coming from with regard to the no ic idea ..phew

Edited by robert on 18th Oct, 2017.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Sorry Robert, by 83 Deg 'inlet temp' I mean the temp at the inlet manifold (AIT) which I am taking as the same as 'Temp out TC' (which is the same as 'Temp out IC' with 0% Eff IC) as reported from the Turbo calculator model.

As far as the NA 'baseline' I used it was around 155 hp as I based it the standard engine with a 60-62mm single TB (albeit a Honda one) which is what I will use on a custom manifold. I won't be using ITBs - do you think I should use a more optimistic NA spec then as a basis for the boosted calcs.

Sorry for all the questions.

no problemo ,its a great project,

i meant ,what's the turbo inlet temp you have on your model , eg ambient outside temp?

re na spec , what i would do is imagine a stock engine .... remapped, straight through exhaust , throttle bodies or big plenum ,big throttle body, engine output .then knock a bit off for the lower cr ,but then maybe a bit on for head porting .

id then look for some dyno charts for that sort of na spec out there in netland , and find some graphs taken on dyno's that look reliable and accurate ,eg superflow ,mustang ,mainline etc .and then use that in the model .

Edited by robert on 18th Oct, 2017.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Cheers,

I used the default value of 21 Deg C for both Inlet air temperature and Ambient IC temperature. I wasn't sure if this a standardised DIN / ISO reference value or something like that.

I read the notes regarding Ambient IC temp and was a little confused by the statement;

"Make sure you choose the correct ambient temperature (that of the medium in which the intercooler is immersed) for calculations, which is not necessarily the ambient air temperature."

So I left them as they were, both the same, 21 Deg C.

SBD Engines have a sort of Stage 1 kit for the XE, it's supposed to be 208 Hp for, for a big bore zorst, Jenvey ITBs and a mappable ECU - MBE (Std head and cams) it's always seemed optimistic to me but I have seen a few ITB equipped cars claim 200 Hp with very few other mods.

So I guess 175 hp wouldn't be too wrong for a 'detuned' lower CR version?