Wet manifold questions / Batch / Port Injection.
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Thanks for taking the time to look through the manual. :)
I maybe mis understood the bit about the transit time, it does work out the same 'time' in degrees of rotation irrespective of engine speed because a small amount of time is the same degree of rotation, because the engines spinning faster then. (I worked it through at various speed increments till i realised that ..)
Its a simple matter to enable the table, its finding what figures it should have in thats the 'fun' bit.

Rich

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I've not got my notebook to hand but iirc its 200mm based on approx 75mm from head face to valve (or whatever it quotes in that article i referred to)

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Is that 1 injector per port ? 1 throttle blade or two ?

Looks kinda port injection ?

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

Yes, we stablished on page 1 that it's more port injection than wet manifold.

However, as I tried to explain in my last post, the problem is that the injectors are too far away from the valve to use the normal siamese methods.

There is enough air in the manifold to fill the cylinder downstream of the injector and the transit time is such that the fuel cannot reach the cylinder before the valve closes.

BTW, I'm interested as to how you calculated the transit time as it is a hugely complex calc with lots of variables and the convergence of the fuel with the air initially moving at different speeds. I gave up trying to calculate it and did it trial and error.

Given the configuration, I think the only way forward is to inject much later so that the fuel from the first injection event goes into the outer cylinder and the fuel from the second injection event will sit in the head ready for the inner cylinder valve opening.

Stick with fixed injection timing for now, get a handle on what works and then build your timing table.

Edited by Paul S on 8th Aug, 2017.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Catch up time once again.
Dyno sesh number? just before Mitp, we swang the injection timing around using the knobs on the control box and despite the engine sounding and feeling different the readings from the two lambdas didnt react as expected. Ho Hum!
After a bit of headscratching and some discussion with DTA it was decided that I hadn't positioned the lambda for 1 and 4 in the right place and having it after the merge was providing a diluted reading ( I'd just put it where i had space and it seemed the sensible place :( )
We also removed two of the injector drivers and realised that the Software and my calculated value for the cam sensor angle didn't agree. I was sure I'd followed the manual to work it out but the software diagnostics during live mapping gave a figure half what I'd input..
Without being able to track the intercylinder fueling changes accurately a quick remap was done to ensure safe fueling for the trip down to mitp. (which it did fine)

So back from Mitp and the exhaust system was taken off, i added lambda bosses in each branch of the lcb and blanked off the old one, wrapped the top section of the manifold to reduce engine bay heat and also wrapped the front section in thermal sleeve from behind the y piece to just in front of the middle lambda, this was to try and stop me from cooking inside the car as the crossmember etc was getting really hot on the way to mitp. I also added outputs from each lambda and the serial output for the gauges logger software.

Back to the dyno and it was immediately obvious after a quick test that this time the lambda readings did react when you swung the injection timing about and it was possible to bring the afr's together.

Onto the live mapping then and then we found it... the live mapping of injection angle doesn't work on the dta software, you can live map all the others like fuel map, ign, etc etc and even maps you arent using like boost control will highlight the cells you have worked through when you open them up, but not injection angle The option is there in the software to allocate a knob on the control box to adjust the value, which it will, but whereas normally you'd map a cell by holding revs v load on the dyno, alter the value then press enter to save it, it doesn't save it. A call to Alex at DTA confirmed this after he'd tested it and its been added to the next software revision he's working on, which i believe is more a major rewrite than a simple update.

The only way was to work through each cell, write down the value, then manually add it, this is slow and hard on the car as dyno sessions can be so I said 'No, we'll wait'
I'm not sure on a timescale for this..
We spent some time just checking through other settings to see if there was anything else amiss and again, an error by me.. The injector dead time i had off the internet doesn't agree with the one the dta software works out by itself.
Another remap after setting the injection angle at a there or therabouts figure (cant recall the exact amount) and we are done for now, I'm not sure i can do any more for the moment.

In respect of the afr's when cruising up and down the motorways the dual lambdas are very close, not exactly bang on but near enough bearing in mind its not a steady load etc, its only under hard throttle they diverge, the outers now going lean (as everyone has said they should from day1 but didnt)

powerwise, the same as before but 500rpm earlier and flat(ish) to the redline, torque is up everywhere gaining 6lbft peak

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Great result,
Looks like you are finally on the right path.
Enjoy John

On 4th Sep, 2017 Richspec said:

Onto the live mapping then and then we found it... the live mapping of injection angle doesn't work on the dta software, you can live map all the others like fuel map, ign, etc etc and even maps you arent using like boost control will highlight the cells you have worked through when you open them up, but not injection angle

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Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Oh I agree, its a bug in the software and will be dealt with, its purely one of those legacy bugs in the system that has never been fixed. Now Alex is in charge he's attending to all these issues, and incorporating user requests. Bit of a bugger in the meantime though.

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Due an update as you guys have been helping me out.
Firstly, the dta software revision/upgrade/total revamp is due for the end of the year.
Secondly, my engines broken..
Something has occurred and its sucking oil through the car at an alarming rate, there was a gamble when i built it in that i was using old pistons, and there was some scores on the honing that didnt clean up. However it has never leaked or visibly burnt oil, apart from what can be seen on the dyno full power runs. But now..well still no visible smoke but on a run across country it'll easy use a litre (or more ) of oil and the back of the car is visibly black. Its always been 'fumy' for those behind but now it MUST be oily as well!! As my winter downtime is minimal (and I've got enough other minis to rebuild as is) I needed a quick solution, a short motor, something i 100% KNOW will work and something that I already have and wouldn't cost a fortune to put together. Sadly that last part has come apart already! That means downstairs in my workshop i now have a part stripped 1293cc A+ with dished pistons, topped by our original 8 port head and fueled by as yet unpurchased throttle bodies, I already have the Sprint cam, but needed to order a large bore exhaust manifold as the one i have is small bore.
The 5 port efi will be removed, set aside, then repaired and tweeked as i want, then...not sure....I will have access to a engine dyno so I'm not finished with it yet, but as with everyone else here with many projects, its finding the time that's hard.

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Good to see you are progressing with it though Rich. Sure it'll come right in the end!

I agree on the bit about time, saying that im back on shift next week and my front subframe maybe making its way into work to get painted!

Well it makes sense to do a 'quick' swap, at least i know i can map the 8 port easy, and I've got maps off the others i can use as a starting point so time off road will be minimal.

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As anyone that followed the build on Youtube will know the quick swap, didn't go smoothly or quickly, but last week I did get a dyno session in and the result was 114bhp and 101lbft from the 1293 8 port.

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