Wet Manifold and Typhoon Assistance
Turbo Mini Forums

It looks like SX-Tune has two log viewers.
CSV Viewer and SX Log View
Not sure if that is new in this version or not.
It is going to take me awhile to figure these out and collect valid data.

Edited by tmsmini on 24th May, 2016.

I have no idea what is going on with logging in SX-Tune, but I am able to create a log and view it in MegaLog Viewer. Maybe some of the SX-Tune log features are for the newer series of ECUs.

I just need to collect some valid and usable data from SX-Tune and see if I can scale it appropriately in MegaLog Viewer.
Of course if you are trying to evaluate cold starts and the morning air temp is about 18 C, it does not help.

Just FYI...another person here in the states recently purchased an MPi kit and the ECU received with it is a Delta400, so the new line of ECUs works on the A series as well.

Edited by tmsmini on 2nd Jun, 2016.

I was able to create a log with SX Tune and load it in Mega Log viewer. I still don't have AFR values as data as that is coming from the Innovate. Alan at 14point7 is working on getting me a new controller as the one I have will not work with the Innovate provided 4.9 sensors at all.

This shows a segment of recorded data where the engine died at a stop sign. The outside temperature was about 85 F, so not a cold engine issue as we had been idling for 5 minutes and the temps were up to operating.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4tUgV_ztz...S0UxT28/preview

I am not sure why I continue to work at this, but I really just want to understand what is going on. The SX Tune software seems to definitely put one at a disadvantage.
https://drive.google.com/a/csueastbay.edu/f...Wd2aTZnWkk/view

You can see the updated value in the table reverting to the original value. I am pretty sure I am following the procedure, maybe there is another setting that commits the changes in the new version.

there's that ignition retardation again....... sub zero when you really want more in an effort to increase torque and stop the engine diving towards stall.

have a look through your idle settings, idle threshold and overrun settings.

see if you can turn off idle control and just let it idle on the base ignition map and see if that makes any difference.

So that is what you and Graham were seeing, sort of spurious ignition advance changes?

So I went back and found an old csv log file from a few months ago and it shows some weird ignition "events."
I was always concentrating on the fueling being off, but it looks like ignition is making a contribution to the dying.


http://www.tmsmini.com/cooper/traveller/et...to/graph-3a.png

-4.75 degrees, seen that before.... Never found out why.

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

I will collect my thoughts and give the "new" SC company a chance to answer...
Thanks for confirming
I wonder if the new ECUs resolve this possible issue.

It must be fixable, it terms something is pulling the timing back, the software is so hard to read we couldn't find the cause. When I say we I had it at a my local dyno a good few times.
I started to loose faith as it kept popping head gaskets with all of the crazy timing. I had a bit of paranoia thinking the software I had wasn't the same as maybe sc had, or some of the stuff was a hard coded all probably untrue.
I then made the decision with some great help, to sell up and move ecu. We made a number of changes at the same time to my setup, iacv, injector position, mat sender position, etc....
I hope you get to the bottom of it, it has to be possible esp on a n/a setup or why are the selling the kit?

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

What does the base ignition map (table) look like ?

What you have logged has several massive and very fast changes.

Not to mention the negative values....

Can you add TPS to the same MLV graph (rather than the temperatures) as, judging by the RPM line I suspect the changes may be TPS related.

If so, there must be something else other than the base map causing those swings.

For the AFRs, surely the Innovate stuff has a 0-5V output (two in your case) and if the SC ECU only has one dedicated "AFR" analogue input it must have at least one spare 0-5V input which you could add to the log ?

So long as you can record the 0-5V inputs somewhere in the ECU log you can do the maths by openning the CSV file in a spreadsheet (after the event), calculating it to a new field then displaying it as AFRs.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Ps the "new" sc part of your post sounds interesting...

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

I will collect some more data on the weekend. I think I have sorted out logging with SX Tune. There are a few steps to get it to a CSV and I think if you navigate away from the "gauges" tab, it stops logging.

Here is picture of the ignition map.



I am not finding a way to turn off dynamic ignition modification directly. The tables I find are related to temperature mostly. Unless there is something in an acceleration table somewhere I have not found.

It does seem like this should be fixable and I keep thinking there must be something wrong with the installation or implementation.

No reply from SC using the new email address at Delta...

And the Innovate does have an aux output cable that I can purchase to provide analogue values. I will have to look into that. Still waiting for a replacement controller from Alan. When I have that I will be able to record one channel of AFR directly.

Edited by tmsmini on 9th Jun, 2016.

The map looks fairly symettric so, although I doubt it's ideal, it certainly doesn't have a minus 4.75 cell anywhere.

So I guess it must be "dynamic ignition modification" that is causing the mess in your log.

Is this a speed/density setup or alpha/n (ie, is the fuelling controlled by MAP or TPS ?)
I'm more used to speed/density (the most common) but some throttle body setups do use alpha/n.
The ignition map being TPS based makes me ask.

EDIT, just to add I don't know what connector Innovate use for the analogue output on this model but their new serial connector cables (the ones that would link to a PC or daisy chain some models) are a totally outrageous price and are just mini-molex so you can buy them for pennies (sorry, cents) at the likes of Digikey or Mouser.
I expect that whatever they use for the analogue output will be similar, outrageously expensive but just an off the shelf connector.

Edited by Rod S on 9th Jun, 2016.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

The only table I see that could have some impact is this one,
Idle Control Proportional Spark Advance


No idea what it does, but the table is populated.
I could not think of anything else , but a good bullshit pseudo technical term, "dynamic ignition modification"

EDIT: I may have where idle control can be turned off, from the online help:
Idle Speed Control

Tornado and Typhoon feature comprehensive idle speed control strategies. Closed loop idle speed control is provided by a proportional spark advance term and a proportional-integral idle air valve (or throttle position for electronic throttle control) controller. Typically engines react quickly to spark advance changes and more slowly to air quantity changes. The proportional spark advance controller therefore gives a fast reacting load compensation with limited range and the air valve control complements this with larger amplitude but slower control.

Idle speed control is invoked when the TPS (PPS for electronic throttle) is less than the enable threshold percentage in the Idle Speed Control variables page and the engine speed is less than the total of the Idle Control Offset to Target added to the current Target Idle Speed. To disable idle speed control, set the Idle Control TPS Enable Threshold to Zero.

Edited by tmsmini on 9th Jun, 2016.

Good bullshit term for sure but no way that table could turn an 18 degree advance into minus 4.75 if it was a correction table on top of the base table.

BUT, it's lowest value is minus 4.75

So maybe this table just takes over completely at idle ???

In which case it is total crap.

Can you not turn it off completely and just use the base table ?

It seems from your edit you can which is what Colin suggested earlier and he has obviously looked at this ECU whereas I haven't (and I don't think I will ever want to...)


EDIT - or if you can't turn it off, just set it as 18 degrees all the way across to match the base table.

Edited by Rod S on 9th Jun, 2016.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

You would expect those values to be in addition or subtraction of the main table? Should be easy to test tho if you set they to a value and see if as Rod says it might take over but I'm not sure if that was the case why there would be a minus value in the base map from sc?

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

switch it off and go from there, if it gets better or goes away, you know you're looking at the right thing

Yes, one would assume that is a modifier that acts on the base MAP, similar to the temp correction tables.
I will record some data and be selective on what "gauges" I record.
By recording the base ignition and the final value, along with switching this off, one should be able to determine whether it is causing the change.

I realize I could just be chasing my tail, but I would like to understand what is happening. The bigger question is why is it happening in my situation and not others. I just saw SC posted on Facebook about sending a batch off to Japan.

I must admit they 'sell' a good product.

The implied hidden corollary to that is, selling and supporting are two different functions...

My efforts to try to understand what is going on with this software and ECU is just an exercise in frustration.
And no reply from SC or Delta.

I thought maybe turning off the idle control components did help at first, but the inconsistency was till there.

These are using the base map with idle control still on, just to verify what I saw before.
http://www.tmsmini.com/cooper/traveller/et...2016-base-1.jpg





So at least that part was consistent.
This is with idle control off




There did not seem to be much change, but the engine was able to recover, but the drop in advance is still present.

Later in the day I went back out reloaded the base map and turned idle control off and I got a 400-500 increase in rpm at idle which I had not seen earlier in the day. So I am not sure what factors were influencing idle at this point.

I know the Rover MEMS ecu also manages spark advance for idle control but that is done in conjunction with an IACV. I do not see where all of the idle spark advance variables are in the tables. Without help from the vendor, I do not see a way forward. At least I learned I can present data in Mega Log Viewer

Their use of spark advance for idle control is nothing new, as they say themselves in something you posted earlier, it can be faster than an IACV alone but the plots above are just still so wrong.

How soon can you get the AFR data into their ECU, there may be yet another feedback loop that isn't yet obvious that's affecting the timing.

And yes, MLV is a flexible tool, it's not just for megasquirt.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

check your tps in live data with what is physically happening on the car, if the car thinks your in the idle region of the tps itll hand over ignition controll to the idle timing table. if even on part throttle the ecu thinks it at idle, itll do as you see. I have no experience of the SC ecu atall, but have experience of many aftermarket ecus. if chasing a bug like this simplify features till its eliminated, so no throttle enrichment, no idle controll, no lambda controll, no temperature compensation, turn off everything you can, and enable features one at a time till the problem reoccurs. a flaky connector in the tps/coolant temp/map/god knows what could be causing this but is too fast to show up on the logs.

turbo 16v k-series 11.9@118.9 :)

Denis O'Brien.

simplify timing tables too, 15 degrees across the board. if possible run a very very simple fueling table too such that its really obvious from datalogs if anything outside is having an influence on the fueling other than the main table

turbo 16v k-series 11.9@118.9 :)

Denis O'Brien.