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 8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
26th Jan, 2015 at 10:20:01pm
I can do sequential timed port injection that delivers the correct amount of fuel directly into the cylinder on the intake stroke for less than £1000, including two widebands Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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 684 Posts Member #: 9590 Post Whore Derby |
26th Jan, 2015 at 10:41:50pm
I personally think it's great to see people pushing the A series development so hats off to SC, as far as the price and all the fine details are concerned it seems to me that it's still in the early stages yet? Might be wrong.
Matt W
On 14th Mar, 2012 mw3 said:
Got a nice big delivery from Carl at Force Racing today. |
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 510 Posts Member #: 1592 Smart Guy! mainland europe near ze germans |
27th Jan, 2015 at 09:09:41pm
On 26th Jan, 2015 samforsey12345 said:
Saw this at Bingley Minifair yesterday.. The information panel said that the injection occurs on the inlet event. The tech guy who seemed to know most about it said that the VE differences between inner/outer cylinders is negligible and from this I assume they will be injecting equal amounts of fuel across the board. I very much doubt this is true (my sims show about a 10 to 20% DR difference depending on rpm). What intrigues me is how could/would you know/measure VE on a siamese port without using in cylinder pressure transducers ? IMHO otherwise it is quite hard to figure out what part of the mass will go where. Then again I think that making a backward 7 porter would be a nifty idea That sir, is not rust, it is the progressive mass reduction system
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
27th Jan, 2015 at 10:16:15pm
On 27th Jan, 2015 Sir Yun said:
I very much doubt this is true (my sims show about a 10 to 20% DR difference depending on rpm). You and me both  using different software solutions and both came up with the same conclusion.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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1267 Posts Member #: 831 Post Whore Montreal, Canada |
27th Jan, 2015 at 10:23:23pm
It will be interesting to see what they find out when they start testing. If they actually monitor AFR per cylinder and inject the exact same amount of fuel in each one, they should see any difference between them. Hopefully there won't be any handwaving and dismissal of facts like what we saw with the EGT measurements. |
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 11046 Posts Member #: 965 Post Whore Preston On The Brook |
27th Jan, 2015 at 10:44:03pm
I doubt very much they will be offsetting any fueling on an individual cylinder basis as i see no evidence of any cam phase sensor of SC design
Edited by Sprocket on 27th Jan, 2015. On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be... So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'... On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........ |
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 10020 Posts Member #: 1456 Mongo Barnsley, South Flatcapshire |
28th Jan, 2015 at 08:30:43am
There was a cam phase sensor in the back of the timing plate If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of. |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
28th Jan, 2015 at 09:03:08am
On 27th Jan, 2015 jbelanger said:
It will be interesting to see what they find out when they start testing. If they actually monitor AFR per cylinder and inject the exact same amount of fuel in each one, they should see any difference between them. Hopefully there won't be any handwaving and dismissal of facts like what we saw with the EGT measurements. Yes interesting. However, if they inject on the intake stroke as they keep saying, then there will be carry over of fuel from the inner cylinder to the outer cylinder when charge robbing occurs. The only way to precisely meter each individual cylinder fuel requirement is to inject after the inlet valve has closed. My use of the term "charge robbing" being air coming back out of the inner cylinder at the end of the intake stroke as the piston moves up the bore and the outer cylinder piston is moving down the bore on its intake stroke. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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10020 Posts Member #: 1456 Mongo Barnsley, South Flatcapshire |
28th Jan, 2015 at 09:28:31am
I suppose the proof will be in the pudding if/when they get it to run.
If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of. |
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 690 Posts Member #: 1851 Post Whore Woolavington, Zummerzet |
28th Jan, 2015 at 10:26:54am
I know a little bit about this, but I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say yet.
Metric is for people who can't do fractions. |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
28th Jan, 2015 at 11:28:13am
I don't doubt that the end result will be very good in terms of power, economy and emissions. However, I doubt if the end result will be anything like what they have so far described on Facebook. In my opinion, based on 7 years experience of 5 Port injection, they are a little off-course at present.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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10020 Posts Member #: 1456 Mongo Barnsley, South Flatcapshire |
28th Jan, 2015 at 11:51:47am
If it delivers (more) power and reliability then I am sure some race classes that cylinder head swaps (16v/7-port) are prohibited in would be interested.
If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of. |
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 (2)[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/150672766@N03/]Rod Sugden[/url], on Fli) 5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
28th Jan, 2015 at 03:13:06pm
The talk of injecting on the intake stroke does seem a bit strange.
Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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1267 Posts Member #: 831 Post Whore Montreal, Canada |
28th Jan, 2015 at 05:06:40pm
On 28th Jan, 2015 Paul S said:
On 27th Jan, 2015 jbelanger said:
It will be interesting to see what they find out when they start testing. If they actually monitor AFR per cylinder and inject the exact same amount of fuel in each one, they should see any difference between them. Hopefully there won't be any handwaving and dismissal of facts like what we saw with the EGT measurements. Yes interesting. However, if they inject on the intake stroke as they keep saying, then there will be carry over of fuel from the inner cylinder to the outer cylinder when charge robbing occurs. The only way to precisely meter each individual cylinder fuel requirement is to inject after the inlet valve has closed. My use of the term "charge robbing" being air coming back out of the inner cylinder at the end of the intake stroke as the piston moves up the bore and the outer cylinder piston is moving down the bore on its intake stroke. I hadn't thought about the charge robbing from reversion. However, I wonder how much different reversion will be with the fuel being injected in the cylinder. Would it be less because of the cooling effect of fuel vaporizing, more because fuel vapor expands or pretty much the same? I can see all 3 possibilities happening depending on pulsewidth, injection timing and RPM but I have no idea. Also, will that mean that injection timing would need to be different between the inner and outer cylinders? What is interesting is that if there is a need for different timing and pulsewidth and that you need to monitor AFR on all cylinders to tune those, it isn't any simpler than sequential port injection. Even if timing can be set the same, it will likely still have an impact on fueling and will depend on intake geometry. That means that you'll end up with a tuning process that is again specific to the 5-port head and requires monitoring each cylinder. I don't see that necessarily as an issue but if one of the goals is to have something more like tuning other engines, that may lead to surprises and disappointment. |
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1267 Posts Member #: 831 Post Whore Montreal, Canada |
28th Jan, 2015 at 05:13:12pm
On 28th Jan, 2015 Rod S said:
The talk of injecting on the intake stroke does seem a bit strange. I don't do facebook so is that fact or just some comments made at Bingley that might have been mis-understood or just "sales talk" ??? That is a direct quote from them on Facebook: Injection timing is fully programmable and we will experiment with the optimum timing to achieve best combustion. I expect it will be on the intake stroke, based on our extensive experience with other GDI engines. The benefits are mainly for 5 port siamesed inlet design so that we can get perfect fuel delivery to each cylinder which you cannot achieve any other way. There is also a very useful charge cooling effect which will raise the detonation limit allow higher compression ratios to be used, especially with forced induction engines.
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
28th Jan, 2015 at 05:36:25pm
Personally, I think that the claims of a charge cooling effect are a little exaggerated.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
28th Jan, 2015 at 05:39:56pm
so that we can get perfect fuel delivery to each cylinder which you cannot achieve any other way. bollox
There is also a very useful charge cooling effect which will raise the detonation limit allow higher compression ratios to be used, especially with forced induction engines. possibly.
If the fuel itself is cool enough that it can cool the incoming air by latent heat of evaporation (assuming it vapourises enough on injection to do so) then I guess some more air could come in to fill the space, This really depends on how they monitor all of this to show what actually happens. I don't doubt for a minute that they can't monitor it properly, and I'm sure they can make this work, but it's a shame the toys were thrown out of the cot over the EGT vs AFR debate so we won't get any technical info. Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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510 Posts Member #: 1592 Smart Guy! mainland europe near ze germans |
28th Jan, 2015 at 08:55:25pm
That sir, is not rust, it is the progressive mass reduction system
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510 Posts Member #: 1592 Smart Guy! mainland europe near ze germans |
28th Jan, 2015 at 09:20:53pm
blah doublepost
Edited by Sir Yun on 28th Jan, 2015. That sir, is not rust, it is the progressive mass reduction system
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11046 Posts Member #: 965 Post Whore Preston On The Brook |
28th Jan, 2015 at 09:21:47pm
You don't necessarily need to measure in cylinder pressure to work out if a cylinder is performing better than another, you can measure the rate of acceleration of the crank during each power stroke. An under performing cylinder will not accelerate the crank as fast as a performing cylinder. You can then tune all cylinders to perform similar. On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be... So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'... On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........ |
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510 Posts Member #: 1592 Smart Guy! mainland europe near ze germans |
28th Jan, 2015 at 09:24:02pm
That is an interesting thought. You do need a pretty high resolution crank sensor to get that data I guess. It is about 45000 degrees rotation per second at full race chat..
Edited by Sir Yun on 28th Jan, 2015. That sir, is not rust, it is the progressive mass reduction system
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11046 Posts Member #: 965 Post Whore Preston On The Brook |
28th Jan, 2015 at 09:46:28pm
On 28th Jan, 2015 Sir Yun said:
That is an interesting thought. You do need a pretty high resolution crank sensor to get that data I guess. It is about 45000 degrees rotation per second at full race chat.. Already doing it On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be... So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'... On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........ |
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 2909 Posts Member #: 83 Post Whore Glasgow, Scotland |
28th Jan, 2015 at 11:30:00pm
On 28th Jan, 2015 Sir Yun said:
That is an interesting thought. You do need a pretty high resolution crank sensor to get that data I guess. It is about 45000 degrees rotation per second at full race chat.. Most(all?) modern OE ecus do this, its usually referred to as smooth running where the ecu alters ignition timing to keep all cylinders producing the same torque on the crank. the sensor isnt the issue, its the ecu's ability to process the information fast enough and accurate enough. turbo 16v k-series 11.9@118.9 :)
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
29th Jan, 2015 at 10:58:07am
On 28th Jan, 2015 Sprocket said:
You don't necessarily need to measure in cylinder pressure to work out if a cylinder is performing better than another, you can measure the rate of acceleration of the crank during each power stroke. An under performing cylinder will not accelerate the crank as fast as a performing cylinder. You can then tune all cylinders to perform similar. That would be a very useful feature to have. However, the main issues with the 5 port cannot be overcome by tuning, although you could compare 1 with 4 and 2 with 3. Charge robbing is due to the siamese port and can only be managed by head, cam and manifolds, not an ECU. You could optimise the power from the pairs of cylinders by individual cylinder ignition timing and fueling and see the gains from such as feature. There is also a strong case for running a higher compression ratio on the inner cylinders :) Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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