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| Home > General Chat > SC 5 Port EFI testing...the results are in....interesting! | |||||||
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203 Posts Member #: 1734 Senior Member Lancaster |
27th Nov, 2010 at 12:44:46pm
Neat looking throttle bodies and tubes. These I am guessing are made by AT Power, same as the DCOE throttle bodies I've got for my KAD head. http://www.atpowershop.co.uk |
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 8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
27th Nov, 2010 at 01:24:37pm
On 27th Nov, 2010 Coupe said:
My point here is that after about 2500 miles of abuse I had killed the head gasket (looked like one of the bad 450's that were about at the time), so when I whipped off the head to check it, I had a good look at what had been going on with the engine as I had already discussed the system with Paul S and he had explained his concerns to me. All cylinders were equally black with carbon deposits which I expected (I had been running at 11.5:1 to 12:1 on boost to be on the safe side), and after a quick clean up, there was no damage at all to valves, pistons, head chambers, or infact anything at all. The whole thing looked just like the day I picked up the brand new engine. All spark plugs and exhaust ports were also equally black and sooty, with no signs of any running lean. Just my tuppence worth. Mark, I can't remember your power figures but i have a distinct recollection that they were seriously down from carburetted engines running 18 psi on the same spec engine/turbo/head/cam. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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1267 Posts Member #: 831 Post Whore Montreal, Canada |
27th Nov, 2010 at 01:54:32pm
On 27th Nov, 2010 johnK said:
Paul - you need a head with more flow capacity than the carb can deliver to make more power! (ie more valves or more ports!) Air flow is only half of the equation; you need the right amount of fuel also. Otherwise what you're saying is that a cylinder at 15:1 AFR will make the same power as one at 13:1. So unless you can have the maximum power from all cylinders, you're not getting the maximum power from the airflow the head has. Jean |
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 3074 Posts Member #: 1348 Post Whore wakefield West Yorks |
27th Nov, 2010 at 02:00:44pm
I dont understand the reason to shoot john down, am sure he doesnt go on to slag the siamese code off, now i no nothing about injection/siamese code etc but it seams john has made a kit for the market, and if it works then so be it, why should it matter. If its an alternative to a carb and works better then so be it.
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1267 Posts Member #: 831 Post Whore Montreal, Canada |
27th Nov, 2010 at 02:38:39pm
On 27th Nov, 2010 cossierick said:
I dont understand the reason to shoot john down, am sure he doesnt go on to slag the siamese code off, now i no nothing about injection/siamese code etc but it seams john has made a kit for the market, and if it works then so be it, why should it matter. If its an alternative to a carb and works better then so be it. As coupe says dave walker did a midget and theres also graham's green turbo'ed 998cc mini. The issue is the dismissal of technical issues without data to back it up. If someone were to come with a nice shiny replacement T3 and say that his version is better because of some actual improvement, there would certainly be comments about the fact that there are much better alternatives. And if this person was to dismiss these and say that his setup works then there would be more questions. I know my example is far fetched but hopefully illustrates my point. I don't think it's anything personal and definitely not an issue of mine's better than yours but the question that facts are dismissed without anything to back it up other than experience and reputation, at least nothing that has been presented. And I certainly welcome any comments on what has been done on the siamese code front. Anything that can help improve the code or how it is used can only be a good thing. Even if it's negative but as long as it's based on measurable facts. Jean |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
27th Nov, 2010 at 02:40:45pm
I do not think that we're shooting John down.
On 26th Nov, 2010 johnK said:
The Weber set up worked really well with this engine spec but fuel distrubution wasn't gread, EGT's were up to 150°C different between the two outside cylinders and the middle one - siamese ports doing their best to spoil the party. Running a 296 cam under dyno load meant the Weber would just pull full throttle from 3000rpm, any lower than this and it wasn't happy at anything much over part throttle - certainely no more than 50% would stop it dead. The EFI set up on the other hand with Simon pulling the 5 port into line kept EGT's within 30°C of the outer pairs and the inner pair under full load conditions - even closer whilst doing the part throttle load sites. Now, I'm a big fan of SC. They some some of the best engines and kit on the Mini scene. The billet 7 port is a work of shere brilliance. BUT to the unfamiliar, those statements are somewhat misleading. I think you can see by the reactions above, that many thought that this was something that they could use with a turbo/supercharger. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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1425 Posts Member #: 690 Post Whore Norfolk |
27th Nov, 2010 at 02:45:16pm
Regarding EGT's - my big mistake, we did have 30°C difference between inner /outer but this was part load conditions at low/mid rpm range, at high rpm and loads we had a 120°C difference between cylinders -very sorry for starting a whole thing off which could have been avoided, too quick to post and too tired sorry. The Weber ran around 80°C difference at part load conditions.
If Carling made Mini engines
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1425 Posts Member #: 690 Post Whore Norfolk |
27th Nov, 2010 at 03:00:40pm
Induction length - the first page pics has in order:-
If Carling made Mini engines
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 370 Posts Member #: 181 Senior Member Chard, Somerset |
27th Nov, 2010 at 03:10:55pm
Good work John. Reminds me of Nigel Browns set up using a Jenvey throttle body, a couple of RC 650cc injectors and Polestar management.
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
27th Nov, 2010 at 03:28:26pm
On 27th Nov, 2010 johnK said:
Induction length - the first page pics has in order:- very short straight stub for silicon hose type attachment short ram pipe - constant curve on inside to large dia lip medium length ram pipe - tapers from 50mm to 55mm at the end with very large ram pipe very long ram pipe - 50mm all the way down its length Now I'll put my hand up here and thought the little straight stub would be useless - wrong! it mathed the top end of the Weber but lost a few lb/ft to it in the mid range! ok we thought straight onto the "medium" length runner - this will sort it out! - errr no, it made more torque around 3000-4000 but then the torque bombed like a switched off light! We did re check this several times! So to prove a point we put the very long inlet on it to see if the tuned length would come back. Uber torque at 2500/3000 rpm - like 100lb/ft - masively strong, then it died like a blown out candle as well! So some quick machining overnight on Thursday by Jon's brother Paul netted us the short ram pipe. This matched the top end of the Weber at slightly earlier rpm and pulled the torque up at the bottom end from where the little straight stub lost out! To see if any shorter was better we pulled the induction back to just the throttle body itself but this didn't give any gains at the bottom or top - phew any shorter and we wouldn't have a throttle body! JK This is timely information as I've been studying optimum runner length this week: http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...tid=316739&fr=0 Working with the Engleman modified Helmholtz Resonator theory, the optimum total length of runner from inlet valve to bell lip would be around 400mm for that engine. That's based on 150mm length at 50mm bore and 250mm length at 30mm bore, or equivalent, giving an average bore diameter of 38.7mm. Any longer than 400mm and the pulses would start to work against you. Edited by Paul S on 27th Nov, 2010. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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 16540 Posts Member #: 4241 King Gaycharger, butt plug dealer, Sheldon Cooper and a BAC but generally a niceish fella if you dont mind a northerner Rotherham, South Yorkshire |
27th Nov, 2010 at 03:58:26pm
Paul can you clarify this statement for me?
On 27th Nov, 2010 Paul S said:
I think you can see by the reactions above, that many thought that this was something that they could use with a turbo/supercharger. I'm going to run suck through supercharger (not ideal, I know). So I will have a carb on the supercharger inlet. So what is stopping me putting one of John's injection units on in place of the carb? In my mind, I have the opportunity to map the fuel injection to give me the optimum setup for my engine, in terms of economy and throttle response. In my mind this better than a carb or am I missing something? I'm not trying to create the ultimate A series, just an engine that will be fairly quick. On 11th Feb, 2015 robert said:
i tried putting soap on it , and heating it to brown , then slathered my new lube on it 
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 11046 Posts Member #: 965 Post Whore Preston On The Brook |
27th Nov, 2010 at 04:02:38pm
Would meassuring EGT at the down pipes of the LCB not be a closer resemblance to each other? On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be... So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'... On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........ |
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1267 Posts Member #: 831 Post Whore Montreal, Canada |
27th Nov, 2010 at 04:13:06pm
On 27th Nov, 2010 Sprocket said:
Would meassuring EGT at the down pipes of the LCB not be a closer resemblance to each other? But then you'd have to take into account any cooling of the gases which would also likely not be the same for all cylinders and not the same for all running conditions. Jean |
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1425 Posts Member #: 690 Post Whore Norfolk |
27th Nov, 2010 at 04:18:29pm
Paul - interesting - the port size (in the head back to the valve to) is 36mm through to the area in the manifold where the runners meet then its 50mm from there out past the throttle- what does the calc say based on that? I'll measure the centre line of the manifold to get a true length next week as well.
If Carling made Mini engines
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
27th Nov, 2010 at 04:39:06pm
On 27th Nov, 2010 apbellamy said:
Paul can you clarify this statement for me? On 27th Nov, 2010 Paul S said:
I think you can see by the reactions above, that many thought that this was something that they could use with a turbo/supercharger. I'm going to run suck through supercharger (not ideal, I know). So I will have a carb on the supercharger inlet. So what is stopping me putting one of John's injection units on in place of the carb? In my mind, I have the opportunity to map the fuel injection to give me the optimum setup for my engine, in terms of economy and throttle response. In my mind this better than a carb or am I missing something? I'm not trying to create the ultimate A series, just an engine that will be fairly quick. Great solution for a suck through. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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16540 Posts Member #: 4241 King Gaycharger, butt plug dealer, Sheldon Cooper and a BAC but generally a niceish fella if you dont mind a northerner Rotherham, South Yorkshire |
27th Nov, 2010 at 04:42:33pm
So does that mean I'm not a numpty in this particular situation (I remain open minded about most other situations On 11th Feb, 2015 robert said:
i tried putting soap on it , and heating it to brown , then slathered my new lube on it
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
27th Nov, 2010 at 04:46:18pm
On 27th Nov, 2010 apbellamy said:
So does that mean I'm not a numpty in this particular situation (I remain open minded about most other situations  )?I'll have to think about that 
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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1083 Posts Member #: 8932 Post Whore |
27th Nov, 2010 at 08:16:06pm
Great work, if it can deliver the same power with better drivability win win. look forward to the FI potenial too. |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
27th Nov, 2010 at 09:51:13pm
On 27th Nov, 2010 n.g.l. said:
Could yor set up be turbo'ed? Dave. On 27th Nov, 2010 george91 said:
Great work, if it can deliver the same power with better drivability win win. look forward to the FI potenial too. You see what I mean? More clarity required as to the intended use. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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 4890 Posts Member #: 1775 Post Whore Chester |
27th Nov, 2010 at 11:58:50pm
I recon it will be much better than the carb setup on our installation esp on overrun and sudden hard acceleration..
On 27th Nov, 2010 apbellamy said:
Paul can you clarify this statement for me? On 27th Nov, 2010 Paul S said:
I think you can see by the reactions above, that many thought that this was something that they could use with a turbo/supercharger. I'm going to run suck through supercharger (not ideal, I know). So I will have a carb on the supercharger inlet. So what is stopping me putting one of John's injection units on in place of the carb? In my mind, I have the opportunity to map the fuel injection to give me the optimum setup for my engine, in terms of economy and throttle response. In my mind this better than a carb or am I missing something? I'm not trying to create the ultimate A series, just an engine that will be fairly quick. I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
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1083 Posts Member #: 8932 Post Whore |
28th Nov, 2010 at 12:01:40am
On 27th Nov, 2010 Paul S said:
On 27th Nov, 2010 george91 said: You see what I mean? More clarity required as to the intended use.Great work, if it can deliver the same power with better drivability win win. look forward to the FI potenial too. I have to admit Paul i didn't really bother reading the whole thread first time, and out of ignorance i haven't paid much notice to fuel injection. Now i've had a read, i realise the issue with blow through type FI using a 5 port head with regard to port balancing problem. feel a bit stupid. :$ Edited by george91 on 28th Nov, 2010. |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
28th Nov, 2010 at 10:59:22am
Well, at the risk of being accused of seeing fog in an empty dish, here are the runner length calcs, based on approx lengths for now:
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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 998 Posts Member #: 2178 Post Whore Leyland, Lancs |
28th Nov, 2010 at 04:58:41pm
On 27th Nov, 2010 Paul S said:
On 27th Nov, 2010 Coupe said:
My point here is that after about 2500 miles of abuse I had killed the head gasket (looked like one of the bad 450's that were about at the time), so when I whipped off the head to check it, I had a good look at what had been going on with the engine as I had already discussed the system with Paul S and he had explained his concerns to me. All cylinders were equally black with carbon deposits which I expected (I had been running at 11.5:1 to 12:1 on boost to be on the safe side), and after a quick clean up, there was no damage at all to valves, pistons, head chambers, or infact anything at all. The whole thing looked just like the day I picked up the brand new engine. All spark plugs and exhaust ports were also equally black and sooty, with no signs of any running lean. Just my tuppence worth. Mark, I can't remember your power figures but i have a distinct recollection that they were seriously down from carburetted engines running 18 psi on the same spec engine/turbo/head/cam. You're absolutely right Paul, it was, but then my engine running it's previous setup with a carb was also well down on others, mainly due to my lack of setup experience. With the injection setup it ran the same sort of times on the drag strip as I ran with the carb, and that was with a poor map which I had rushed in order to get the car running. Had I spent more time on the map, and maybe done it on a dyne with someone who knew what they were doing, it would have made much more power. In the end though I got fed up of messing about with it all, lost a bit of interest, ripped it all out and sold it all and stuck a K Series in and now it's my daily drive! On 15th Jul, 2009 fastcarl said:
a breif struggle ensued but Will emerged the victor with a pair of undies in his possesion On 21st Sep, 2009 apbellamy said:
No, but you did chuck your guts up over my front gate the Saturday before! You even managed to get a bit in your arm pit... |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
28th Nov, 2010 at 05:04:49pm
On 28th Nov, 2010 Coupe said:
Had I spent more time on the map, and maybe done it on a dyne with someone who knew what they were doing, it would have made much more power. This is where we will have to disagree. I strongly believe that, when using forced induction, unless you get the injection just right, i.e. timed port injection ala MPi, then you are better off with a carb. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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998 Posts Member #: 2178 Post Whore Leyland, Lancs |
28th Nov, 2010 at 05:09:41pm
On 28th Nov, 2010 Paul S said:
On 28th Nov, 2010 Coupe said:
Had I spent more time on the map, and maybe done it on a dyne with someone who knew what they were doing, it would have made much more power. This is where we will have to disagree. I strongly believe that, when using forced induction, unless you get the injection just right, i.e. timed port injection ala MPi, then you are better off with a carb. I honestly can't argue with that as obviously I can't prove otherwise! Either way, it was an interesting exercise for me and it worked as far as I was concerned. You, Rod and Jean all know way more about this stuff than I, I just thought it was worth explaining my findings. On 15th Jul, 2009 fastcarl said:
a breif struggle ensued but Will emerged the victor with a pair of undies in his possesion On 21st Sep, 2009 apbellamy said:
No, but you did chuck your guts up over my front gate the Saturday before! You even managed to get a bit in your arm pit... |
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