clutch thoughts
Turbo Mini Forums

Robert,

For the plain plate you could start with a non-verto pressure plate with the lugs machined down.

The sceptics may suggest that this will not work - but I dont know. You've double the area, but have you halved the clamping pressure by sharing it over four surfaces?

Also wear may be a problem. You can only use half the normal plate wear before the clamping pressure goes.

Also you will increase the inertia that the baulk rings will have to cope with on take-up, particularly when changing down.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

yep i agree axel, i was thinking of something like that or a pressure plate face machined down if they are steel and not cast iron , 2 disc will give twice the torque capacity ,and the clamping pressure wont change no matter how many discs you have provided the deflection of the pressure plate is the same as it was with one disc,
the question of the baulk rings we,v discussed , ans ui think the weight of a non sprung disc times two would be marginally more than a single fully sprung disc ,bearing in mind that the spacer goes round with the flywheel ,, seem a nice idea to have a twin plater ,but it may be easier to put in a second spring like some of the tilton clutches ... ...

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

so experimenting on a verto plate .065 spring ,seems to have very approx 200 lb pressure on the release bearing to flip the spring overcentre . so if this one is 200 and the turbo verto is about 350 lb ( found on a search ),then with two springs i have a choice of 550 ,400 or whatever the other vertos add up to ,anybody know what the old type grey and double grey release bearing loads are ?
regards
robert.

Edited by robert on 4th Sep, 2006.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

looks like the higher non verto covers are in the region of 550 lb !! ok this seems drivel to me !1 if the cone is forcing the plate down with a clamping force of say 1100lb ,then with no finger ratio advantage ,surely the pressure on the release bearing would equal the plate pressure at least until some movement when the cone would go flat and lose some force hmmmm.anyrdup...
i took the plate i had apart and got a figure of .076 plate thickness ,and about 3 to 1 ratio on the fingers versus pressure ,so a turbo verto at 960 would be 320lb. this plate seems to be about 400lb after testing on a press ,so i guess its a weak low bhp one ,but it might be ideal for the two spring idea ,next prob is getting some of the weird rivets they use to hold it together ,and finding a turbo cover to assemble it all on .ah fun .actually a turbo at 960 and this at 400 may be a bit much 1360 lb pressure and 450 odd release bearing ld,on the other hand ,it should be ok .

Edited by robert on 5th Sep, 2006.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Keep it up robert.

I'm keen to stay with the verto. Not a problem with my current plans, about 100 lbft, but in the future I might want to go higher torque than any current verto clutches can handle.

Could you not use threaded screws in place of the rivets? This would give you the option of trying different springs.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

yes i was thinking bout that axel , prob is the old ones are a triangular shape ,that keeps the point of contact with the spring in the same place over towards ro spring edge by about 3 mm off centre of the rivet ,i think the borg and beck version had a support ring instead of just the rivets ,if i can get an old one of those i could use it with bolts i think maybe possibly .. time will tell .seems like we are the only ones interested in this axel .!

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

I have been watching and sounds very nteresting to me too, I wait with anticipation to see what comes of this.....

robert,

I've got an old Sachs clutch with a support ring.

And i'm using exactly the same clutch in my EFI test engine.

It also has 0.090" thick fingers so should handle the torque.

I can post a picture later when I get home - working at the moment.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

thanks tom ,i think i may have been used to the us sites where one gets more feedback and guages whether the topic is interesting enough to continue to post by the response level .

axel that would be great ,that means thers more chance of me finding one i can use if both sachs and borg and beck put those rings on ,, if i still had a decent lathe to use id make one !
thanks
robert.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Basically, I think robert is looking into doubling up the springs on the verto pressure plate.

Double the clamping force and therefore torque capacity, but still less axial thrust than the double grey.

I see this as a possible one off solution for the short term until TD gets his design sorted.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

exacto axel.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

well i'm kind of thinking of something like this for a uni project i have to do. may involve all new parts but i think the market is man enough for it.

Although dont want to step on dave's toes. just something i think i'll be needing asap.

Be interesting atleast to see what different designs are thought up if nothing else.

Picture of Sachs clutch.



Sorry its so small but looks like I copied it from eBay. Same as/very similar to mine though. You can see the ring.

The rivets have a round flat head, also flat on the underside, so they could be replaced with screws and washers.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

ahaaa
now i see what you mean
well thas ok cos thats the same as the ring one finds under the spring when one hacks a pp apart!!

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

So hack two standard plates apart. You've then got two springs and two rings.

Bob's your uncle.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

precisamundo ,just need some basid nuts and bolts and its a gooer .

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Just had a look at a standard type plate and the Sachs with the outer ring. Yep, the rings are the same, just the Sachs has an outer one.

One potential problem though. The rivets have a shoulder that precisely locates the diaphragm. Hence, if you use screws they will need a machined shoulder.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

or tube spacer ?

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

HERE ARE THE RIVETS OFF MY COVER AXEL , DO YOU MEAN THIS SHOULDER PART ,THAT SHOULD BE DEAD EASY TO MAKE OR EVEN GET A BOLT THAT DIA AND DRILL OUT THE HOLE IT GOES IN >oops bloody caps key

Edited by robert on 6th Sep, 2006.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Yep, you got it in one.

How easy did that come out?

Did you manage to get it out without damaging the hole or distorting the plate?

What is the hole diameter?

Apoligies for all the questions

Edited by Paul S on 6th Sep, 2006.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Nice and shiney!

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

not easy to get out!! ,drill then carbide cutter then big hammer and punch

5.42 MM is the plate thickness so no visible distortion

rivet 7mm dia in hole .

im a bit concerned about my measurement that this .076 spring is only 400lb pressure , if a turbo is 960 as dave said ,and .09 something ,then id think this .076 would be more in the 600 range ,but i dont know , whether one could just percentage it up eg turbo .095 minus 20% is .076 so that would make the one i have 960 -20%=768lb hmmm
if anybody could measure the spring thickness of any clutches they have verto or not ,that may help

anyrdup
off for supper
regards robert.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

On 06/09/2006 18:56:56 Axel said:

Nice and shiney!

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

where are they from axel ?

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Pro Bolts Ltd.

Probably not the right size but a good starting point.

Edited by Paul S on 6th Sep, 2006.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."