Project "Marginal gains..."
Turbo Mini Forums

re f1 zorsts,who's up the rd from me at Sutton just south of eynsham oxon...? is that were you are now dan ?

you wil be horrified to know I built the exhaust for my bike from old f1 Inconel ,welded with my mig :-0

Edited by robert on 18th Oct, 2017.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Robert Primary Designs is in Thame. Not sure of the place your thinking of.

Aubrey: I would love a manifold made from inconel, it's extremely light. The F1 exhausts use 0.9mm in places! And 0.5 on some parts of the tailpipes.

My build thread: http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=454802

Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/85313398@N02/

Robert,

I think the place you speak of is SST or SS exhausts or something like that but I have never had any dealing with them.

Between me and the fabby we had about 50% of the Inconel I needed to make this, but even at that level it was still too expensive to buy the remainder, what MIG wire did you use?

Dan,

I'm sure Inconel is actually slightly heavier than stainless, I forget the relative figures but I looked into it years ago. It's really as you stated the fact that it can be used in such thin gauges compared to stainless where the weight saving comes from.

I still want to use some though Maybe an Inconel tail pipe

(Anyone know where Robert keeps his bike )

Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 9th Apr, 2014.

I thought one of the main benefits of inconel is its ability to dissipate heat a lot more efficiently than other materials, meaning thinner gauges can be used before over heating and cracking becomes an issue.

I see primary are still advertising...I was tempted to apply.

Robert could you be thinking of parallel motion/ e squared that were based in Bicester but not sure if they moved?

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fusion-Fabri..._homepage_panel

www.fusionfabs.co.uk



1/4mile in 13.2sec @ 111 terminal on 15psi

Hi Matty,

Neither materials nor engine specific materials are really my thing but I have always thought of Inconel in two ways;

1.) Your temperature needs exceed what 304 / 321 can readily sustain, so use Inconel

2.) Your stainless is OK at the temp you encounter but you want to make it lighter and because Inconel has a higher general temperature rating (amongst other properties such as higher thermal conductivity) than normal stainless so you can use it in 'thinner' gauges without thermally related failure.

So not sure if it's Inconel's higher thermal conductivity (therefore heat dissipation) that gives it it's 'better' high temp behaviour or if it's it's other thermal / mechaincal properties?

Still confuses the hell out of me that Inconel has a lower melting point than 304 / 321 but has a higher 'general temperature rating'

Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 9th Apr, 2014.

On 9th Apr, 2014 Aubrey_Boy said:
Robert,

I think the place you speak of is SST or SS exhausts or something like that but I have never had any dealing with them.

Between me and the fabby we had about 50% of the Inconel I needed to make this, but even at that level it was still too expensive to buy the remainder, what MIG wire did you use?

Dan,

I'm sure Inconel is actually slightly heavier than stainless, I forget the relative figures but I looked into it years ago. It's really as you stated the fact that it can be used in such thin gauges compared to stainless where the weight saving comes from.

I still want to use some though Maybe an Inconel tail pipe

(Anyone know where Robert keeps his bike )

Cheers

Edited by robert on 9th Apr, 2014.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Speaking of inconel pipes...

The funny thing is the small carbon panel to left cost more! (its made from PyroSic)

Ummmmm nice, smells a bit French?, but it's been a long time since I saw any relatively recent F1 stuff (I'm sure that's a contradiction in terms).

Lovely details like the collectors and the abutments so you are sure everything is assembled correctly.

Yeah that PyroSic stuff is mad, its thermal properties are impressive, everything in the photo would probably be made of it if the pesky FIA didn't insist on 'metallic' only zorsts,

But it does remind me I do have a bit of Inconel on my car! My Lambda boss is cast Inconel 625 the same as the one in the photo.



Now all I gotta do is find it.

Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 12th Jul, 2017.

Had enough of doing the exhaust now, seem to be going around in circles, not happy with the down pipe routing or clearance;







But going to spend time on the front suspension from here on in and then maybe come back to the down pipe later but there is enough done now in order to put it back in the car and sort all of the pipework and look at the heat exchangers.





I might look at putting the start of the down pipe into a 1 into 2 collector and have 2 tubes going underneath the sump to improve clearance but maintain the same cross sectional area.



Got the NMB rod ends for the front top wishbones so it's back on with the suspension as I want to get it back on it's wheels to look at ground clearance and space in the inner wings



Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 12th Jul, 2017.

Yep I think that's generally how it can sustain higher temps, due to being able to dissipate the heat quicker, and has a relatively similar melting point. I've heard that the main disadvantage with inconel is that is more prone to cracking with extreme changes in temps, and the likes of the rally boys have had issues with cracking when the manifolds get quenched with water,and resorted back to stainless in some cases.

I've just found a supplier of 1.2mm stainless bends near me, so I might look into that for a future project.

Manifold looks superb, shame you have to cover it up with a bonnet! Lol

On 9th Apr, 2014 Aubrey_Boy said:
Hi Matty,

Neither materials nor engine specific materials are really my thing but I have always thought of Inconel in two ways;

1.) Your temperature needs exceed what 304 / 321 can readily sustain, so use Inconel

2.) Your stainless is OK at the temp you encounter but you want to make it lighter and because Inconel has a higher general temperature rating (amongst other properties such as higher thermal conductivity) than normal stainless so you can use it in 'thinner' gauges without thermally related failure.

So not sure if it's Inconel's higher thermal conductivity (therefore heat dissipation) that gives it it's 'better' high temp behaviour or if it's it's other thermal / mechaincal properties?

Still confuses the hell out of me that Inconel has a lower melting point than 304 / 321 but has a higher 'general temperature rating'

Cheers

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fusion-Fabri..._homepage_panel

www.fusionfabs.co.uk



1/4mile in 13.2sec @ 111 terminal on 15psi

That sir, is not rust, it is the progressive mass reduction system

http://aseriesmodifications.wordpress.com/

Cheers Matty, it will probably be covered with a Ti cover anyway so not seen with the bonnet up...

Sir Yun...

The truth, no idea, I know it will get 'kin hot

The plan....

a) Suck it and see



It's closest at the front edge, 20mm ish from the leading edge of the bonnet, it's a good 75mm from the top of the manifold to the inner face of the bonnet, we've got a couple of pieces Ti sheet (which will be polished) one has been bent to the internal shape of the front of the bonnet with a 10mm or so air gap and the other may be bent to fit sort of midway between the top of the bonnet and the manifold.

b) Paint it Brown so as it discolours it's less noticeable

c) Clubman front end

I also have some of that crinkly multi layer heat insulation material / sheet.

Rightly or wrongly my main concern is the heat soak into the block (I am putting a Ti sheet / Insulation sheet between the turbo and the block) but I don't think it will be much different to say a Mirage manifold is - and the A series obviously doesn't have direct airflow from the grille to help cool it.

From my measurements the Clubman front gives a lot more air gap and is my last resort - not because I don't like them but I want to try and make the roundnose work first.

I'll be happy if I get to dealing with the problem of heat management as it means it's up and running

Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 12th Jul, 2017.

http://www.camauto.com/dei/heat-barrier/reflect-a-gold-sheet

put on the inside of your bonnet, not cheap, but it will certainly stop any heat.

And its pretty motorsport...

Looks good btw mate.

are you going to use a turbo blanket/bag and header heat wrap?

For the exhaust under the sump, could you not ovalise the tube (rather than going 2 smaller diam tubes)

David.

Cheers Alex,

I do have some of that from a previous project but I have had it a few years now so not sure how long the adhesive holds up for.

I am going to put temperature tabs in all the likely affected places (those that 'hold' the highest temp seen)



I've got them in a few temperature ranges and it will give some idea of the sort of maximum temps I am up against.

Hi Turbo this,

I wasn't planning on using a turbo blanket, the hot side is so small and with all the water / oil / WG actuator connections I am not sure you could without cutting it to bits. Plus I think it might just succeed in shielding the turbo from the cold air coming in through the grille.

TBH I have only ever seen them fitted to 'aftermarket' road cars and none of race or rally cars I have been involved with so my guess is not. I will ask an ex colleague to see what he thinks.

No plans to heat wrap a stainless manifold.

Hi Mini93,

I have been considering 1 big oval section as well but the fabby said it wouldn't be cheap to make one up as just say crushing a tube in a vice / press can be a bit inconsistent as far getting a decent shape. You cannot just ovalise the same size tube you started with as it will reduce the cross sectional area and as you change the shape you have to correct the area (due to the shape being less efficient) using hydraulic diameter calculations

I have worked out a couple of shapes based on the principle of 'hydraulic diameter' if we do go this route, I just needed to walk away from the exhaust stuff for a bit as it's taking too long and a break from it usually helps to think of a better solution.

Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 12th Jul, 2017.

Ain't used them in a while! Fen end memories.

Had some of these on my CRF450 supermoto on the top of each radiator as there was no cooling fans and was used on the road (only 100 degree ones though) had no issue with the glue at all and are still stuck on there 3 years on.

Not sure how the glue will hold at the temperatures on the manifold though.

On 12th Apr, 2014 Aubrey_Boy said:

What the mind can conceive the mini can achieve
MITP 2012 17.01 seconds 1/4 mile against "The Don"
MITP 2013 16.83 seconds 1/4 mile

Hi Lee.pb,

Yes the temp tabs are good for several years, I was referring to the glue on the gold reflective tape maybe being past it's best.

I won't be sticking any directly to the manifold though

Just all the surrounding parts, bonnet, block, rad etc...

Cheers

Started work on the inboard coilover suspension;

The skeleton of the damper yoke, T45 / EN14 just tacked for now



It is just mock up for now



Mounted to the damper;





In situ with the modified top wishbone



It's not very clear from the photos but this is framework of how the wishbone connects to the horizontal inboard coilovers, additional 'sheet work' will brace the spindly legs together but as long as all the clearance checks workout it will hopefully be not too dissimilar

Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 13th Jul, 2017.

that eyeballs as slightly falling rate... is it just the photo angle?

Edited by robert on 18th Oct, 2017.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Hi Robert,

Hell NO!

My guess is because the Mini doesn't have ARB's and it is relatively narrow the non lin rate (which is also present in the roll rate) is to try and reduce the body roll compared to what it would be without it and also it will give more understeer as lateral force increases which again is normal (Well the roll moment distribution part of the understeer tendency anyway)

I will post some graphs of the instantaneous wheel rate and try and capture a video of the simulation which might better show the relative wishbone to coil over angles and lengths

Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 29th Nov, 2014.

ive got no clue what to looks for in a good suspension setup but that looks cool

ah no , I see what I was doing now , I was taking the wishbone/shock pivot point as the end of the chrome shock shaft , whereas its actually at the end of the horseshoe miles further outboard .doh.

On 16th Apr, 2014 Aubrey_Boy said:
Hi Robert,

Hell NO!

It's most definitely rising rate (that was the whole purpose of this inboard layout!) and I can adjust it so that the percentage rising rate is either just slightly less than the cone sprung A series car to being just slightly more.

It's interesting to see the amount of rising rate that the standard cone sprung car has > it's quite a lot more than any other set up I have come across. (Just to be clear here I am just taking about rising rate due to suspension kinematics and not any rising rate due to any rubber cone non linearity or bump stops / rubbers that the standard car may have)

My guess is because the Mini doesn't have ARB's and it is relatively narrow the rising rate (which is also present in the roll rate) is to try and reduce the body roll compared to what it would be without the rising rate and also it will give more understeer as lateral force increases which again is normal (Well the roll moment distribution part of the understeer tendency anyway)

I will post some graphs of the instantaneous wheel rate and try and capture a video of the simulation which might better show the relative wishbone to coil over angles and lengths

Cheers

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Yeah the photo does a good job of hiding the pertinent bits

Cheers

Edited by Aubrey_Boy on 13th Jul, 2017.