EFI on a 7-Port
Turbo Mini Forums

Marcel,

EVERYtime i see that setup.................................

On 11/01/2006 01:59:08 TurboDave said:

Marcel,

EVERYtime i see that setup.................................

www.starchak.ca and www.TDCperformance.ca

Took me a long time to work out that that was the inlet rather than the exhaust.

Looks great, but I hope that there is an advantage to the long pipes, cos it looks bloody heavy.

Wil

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

www.twin-turbo.co.uk

Jeez, what a tasty installation!

May I ask you what components you used in manufacturing the plenum/inlet?

What throttle body did you use?

Or maybe would you be interested in doing one for a poor soul?

MAGA7INE, I'm keeping part of the inner wings to brace the front panel and to waterproof the engine bay - the wheel covers will do the rest..

Don't worry, you're getting an exclusive on her once she's finished!

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(

Was thinking.... would a Metty Turbo fuel pump be up to the task? Or do I need a more powerful one?

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(

You will need a propper high pressure injection fuel pump. The metro turbo one will be too low pressure.

http://www.twin-turbo.co.uk
http://www.hillclimbandsprint.co.uk/default.asp

A man without a project is like a like a woman without a shopping list.

Would an mpi one be good then?
Does an injection pump have to be in the fuel tank?
Marcel, what will you be using?

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(

I guess the mpi one would be fine, and no it does not need to be in the tank so long as it can supply the correct pressure it will be fine.

http://www.twin-turbo.co.uk
http://www.hillclimbandsprint.co.uk/default.asp

A man without a project is like a like a woman without a shopping list.

OK then, an mpi fuel tank and pump it is then...

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(

www.starchak.ca and www.TDCperformance.ca

The problem is that I only have a MIG welder and I'm not very handy with it for smaller jobs, and I dont have access to a pipe bender and stuff.

I'll try to get the 626 throttle body from a breakers.. got to start from somewhere!

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(

626 throttle bodies seem to be hard to find!
Anyone got any indication of the sizes of throttle bodies close to 50mm?

Maybe Rover V8 3.9efi?
or Rover 820 turbo?

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(

Try a nissan 200sx Turbo, might be a bit big though.

Edited by Ben H on 12th Jan, 2006.

http://www.twin-turbo.co.uk
http://www.hillclimbandsprint.co.uk/default.asp

A man without a project is like a like a woman without a shopping list.

Edited by curta_crankn_daddy on 12th Jan, 2006.

www.starchak.ca and www.TDCperformance.ca

For what it is worth, I could not agree more...........

Unfortunately, I'm only a bank employee, with some cash, a little time, and not much knowledge of automotive engineering.

Since I have to rely on other people to get most things fabricated and done, I cannot really afford to experiment, so I have to rely on what has already worked for other people. For instance, without anyone's advice, my first throttle body would have come from a 4.6 Rover V8, ex LR Discovery, but that has a 3 inch diameter! Imagine my paying someoneto fabricate such a manifold, and then finding it's too big for my application!

So please, pardon me for not being so imaginative. It's already a big leap to get this setup to work, so I need to eliminate as many question marks as possible.

And if this thing works and becomes Malta's fastest Mini... it will all be thanks to you guys!

Mark

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(

www.starchak.ca and www.TDCperformance.ca

I already have started that way... I already had Malta's fastest roadgoing 998... and hey... it's not that I have too much cash to spare - a guy at Halfords in the UK probably earns as much as I do in Malta!

I'm NOT buying anyone else's project car because that way I'll never learn anything anyway, and I'ld probably end up not liking the project in the first place.

And this is probably the last Mini I'm building, so it's got to be a good one. I'm going 7-Port in the interests of simplicity for the fuel injection bit, and I'm going for fuel injection because I'm more handy with a laptop than setting up a carb.

So, in fact, I'm going for an ambitious project within limits, and based on who can help me out as well.... you guys are a very helpful bunch!

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(

So, I've talked to en engineer in Malta - he's working on diesels mainly, but that means he's got loads of experience with intercooled turbo installations.

Basically, he argued that any inlet shape is OK for forced induction, as the turbo will push the air through any shape. The important thing is to maintain the same cross-sectional area at all points (much like area-ruling in aerodynamics) and that the plenum itself has the same capacity as that of the engine... that is 1310 cc in my case. So, I'll just find a throttle body, and from its diameter, work ut the length of the plenum I need. Then it will be an issue of making the inlet ports exactly the same length.

Anyone can please confirm my assumptions?

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(

Sure, any shape is OK, but that doesn't mean it's good. You can just turn up the boost a little.
But if you can make more power with less boost(therefore less stress on everything), that's better.
Saying the intake manifold doesn't matter is like saying the head doesn't matter on a turbo car either because the turbo can just push air thru. It's still a restriction and still a problem.
Ideally(and this is severely ideal), turbos are unnecessary. Turbos push more air into the motor and this extra air is measured in boost. Boost is a measure of restriction in the amount of air the engine can ingest. An ideal engine would not really be able to generate boost because it can pull air thru as fast as it needs. You want to move more air? You spin the motor faster.
Now obviously, this cannot happen, but if you think of motors in this way, you realize that every aspect of design makes a difference. This is what racing engineers discovered in the 60's when they went from vehicles that would be stressed to keep up w/ todays economy cars and need to be serviced every 20 miles, to the thousand HP record setting vehicles that Porsche used to win Le Mans.

-Tyler
DO NOT TOUCH MY HORNS OF DOOM!

I think we've had this discussion before on Minimania but I don't agree with your description of boost being a measure of restriction. While I totally agree that restriction is bad as much on a NA engine as a turboed one, the turbo is not pushing air into the engine but simply presenting it denser air (if the system is correctly designed). So the engine will just ingest the air it can through the restrictions it has but the air will be denser so it will make more power if enough fuel is present.

The way boost will be a measure of restriction is when looking at power and comparing different engines. If you have the same power produced by different engines which have different amount of boost (but similar intake air temperature) then the one with the higher boost will have more restrictions. But if you increase boost for the engine above with the lower boost to the same higher boost, you have not increased restrictions but you may have increased power if you can keep the temperature in check (and therefore increase air density).

Boost is only the intake pressure seen by the engine. Whether it's because a NA engine is operated from sea level to the top of a mountain or a turbo engine has it's boost increased, the pressure change has nothing to do with the a change of restriction.

Again, I agree with you that whatever you can do to produce the same amount of power with the lowest amount of boost will result in a more efficient engine. That doesn't mean that boost is bad or a measure of something bad.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Perhaps I stated my theories a bit harshly.
I love turbocharged engines. I think the turbocharger is a brilliant idea. It is a way to present denser air and a turbo will pretty much always be capable of producing higher power, all other things being approximately equal.

However, if I can get the same amount of air thru an engine w/o a turbo, I will be making the same power, and it will be simpler and probably more fuel efficient. That was my whole point about it being ideal and not really achievable. If you can get so many CFM of air thru 2 engines, 1 w/ a turbo, and 1 w/o, the one without is a "better" motor.
However, there are limits to fuel burn rate, mechanical, adiabatic, and volumetric efficiencies that pretty much prevent this from ever happening, so give me a turbo any day. I just use these ideas to correllate between different systems and help me understand how to produce the best power.

-Tyler
DO NOT TOUCH MY HORNS OF DOOM!

Agreed that we have to work on an efficient shape, but my point is that ti's not as imperative as in a N/A engine. We can compromise here. I'ld still try to get an efficient head design and the best flowing plenum, but I needen't go into the detail necessary for a N/A engine.It's more important to get the exhaust cycle to work as efficiently as possible.

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(

I suppose, but in my eyes, if you're going to the trouble of building an intake system, you might as well do it properly.
...or you won't have the fasted 998 for long.

-Tyler
DO NOT TOUCH MY HORNS OF DOOM!

My 998 has proved its point, blown its distributor out of the grille, and is happily enjoying retirement in the back of my garage... now I'm going big bore. This system is intended for a 1310...

I've just sourced a Cosworth throttle body.. at 62mm, I guess it's about the correct size...

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(