| Page: |
| Home > A-Series EFI / Injection > Coil configuration with Micrasquirt | |||||||
 4890 Posts Member #: 1775 Post Whore Chester |
19th Dec, 2015 at 11:48:38pm
On 17th Dec, 2015 jbelanger said:
On 17th Dec, 2015 gr4h4m said:
Got to agree with Tom. The world has moved on, I have spent my life in the computer industry, and I couldn't be bothered with all the research, it's all about out of the box features. Then how do you choose the ECU to use for the feature you need? You do need to do some research. That's the same for Megasquirt. You have out of the box features that are different depending on the model you choose from the Microsquirt all the way to the MS3Pro. And then you have added options if you want to learn more and do more with the lower end units. That's not a problem but an added feature. And there's the additional benefit of not depending on someone else for anything related to the ECU and saving the associated expenses. Look at Paul S latest build. His effort is not spent on the ECU but on the wiring and the engine and its components. And he uses a standard MS3/MS3x with no modification that you can buy fully assembled (or assemble yourself). I read the link you posted (shown below) it shows soldering resistors, and then finding coils that work with it? http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/Micros...are-3.4-58.html My point is IT is moving so fast software doesn't even have "ok" buttons anymore. To be honest most of the Ecu software I have ever used (not many) or seen screen shots for, look like they were written to run on the Ark. They lack massively in the UX department. I can't wait to see how everyone is going to keep up with windows 10. Even with a basic understanding I think most people will find it hard to tune a car properly, even with the auto tune options. A good tuner will short cut that massively, so by using the software and hardware that they are familiar with will also assist with the speed and quality of the tune. i think the best advice I would give is to pick a tuner you trust that is willing to tune your car and go with their recommendation. I have no hate for megajolt. I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
|
||||||
|
1267 Posts Member #: 831 Post Whore Montreal, Canada |
20th Dec, 2015 at 12:30:15am
I definitely agree that tuning in an essential part and that it is not as easy as some think or some would lead you to believe. So having someone who will be able to do it efficiently and with good result is valuable.
|
||||||
|
3588 Posts Member #: 655 Post Whore Northern Ireland |
20th Dec, 2015 at 11:07:06am
On 19th Dec, 2015 gr4h4m said:
My point is IT is moving so fast software doesn't even have "ok" buttons anymore. To be honest most of the Ecu software I have ever used (not many) or seen screen shots for, look like they were written to run on the Ark. They lack massively in the UX department. I can't wait to see how everyone is going to keep up with windows 10. IMO part of the biggest problem with a lot of modern ecu's is the tuning software. Some makers seem to think flashy colourful screens, with loads of menus, submenus some at the top of the screen, side of the screen, hidden accessible only via mouse etc etc....are a total fucking nightmare to actually use when sitting in a car with only a keyboard to hand. They look like they're developed by iphone/android type freaks instead of by people who actually tune cars and need to use and navigate the software whilst tuning IMO there is no need to keep up with Windows 10, if anything most of those writing tuning software need to avoid it like the plague. Maybe they'll try and have different software for different tuners. A dumbed down simple colourful option for those who dont know how to tune but heavily restricts options for safety, and a fully functional version for those that do and dont want hindered by the software. On all the ecu's I've used, usually the best software to work with looks like the most primitive on screen. 9.85 @ 145mph
|
||||||
 16540 Posts Member #: 4241 King Gaycharger, butt plug dealer, Sheldon Cooper and a BAC but generally a niceish fella if you dont mind a northerner Rotherham, South Yorkshire |
20th Dec, 2015 at 12:41:33pm
Why would you avoid windows 10? It's the current mainstream OS and will be on he majority of computers within the next 12-24 months. It pains me having to run a crap laptop for tuning to ensure the tuning software still works.
On 11th Feb, 2015 robert said:
i tried putting soap on it , and heating it to brown , then slathered my new lube on it 
|
||||||
|
4890 Posts Member #: 1775 Post Whore Chester |
20th Dec, 2015 at 01:07:26pm
On 20th Dec, 2015 stevieturbo said:
On 19th Dec, 2015 gr4h4m said:
My point is IT is moving so fast software doesn't even have "ok" buttons anymore. To be honest most of the Ecu software I have ever used (not many) or seen screen shots for, look like they were written to run on the Ark. They lack massively in the UX department. I can't wait to see how everyone is going to keep up with windows 10. IMO part of the biggest problem with a lot of modern ecu's is the tuning software. Some makers seem to think flashy colourful screens, with loads of menus, submenus some at the top of the screen, side of the screen, hidden accessible only via mouse etc etc....are a total fucking nightmare to actually use when sitting in a car with only a keyboard to hand The issues you mention above it bad UX. I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
|
||||||
|
3588 Posts Member #: 655 Post Whore Northern Ireland |
20th Dec, 2015 at 03:12:07pm
On 20th Dec, 2015 apbellamy said:
Why would you avoid windows 10? It's the current mainstream OS and will be on he majority of computers within the next 12-24 months. It pains me having to run a crap laptop for tuning to ensure the tuning software still works. Personally I run it at work, home and on my mobile with no issues. Why would you want it for tuning a car when no software is ever designed around it ? Using the latest Windows is the very way to make a lot of ecu tuning software stop working because it isnt designed for it. Usually comms issues. If you choose to buy a crap laptop for tuning that's your decision, but has no baring on what is required from a laptop for tuning. Hell a lot of older ecu's still bloody use serial/RS232 for comms which completely rules out anything modern if that's what you do. USB adaptors are very hit and miss for for serious work not even worth contemplating. If they use USB comms less of an issue, although some even though they appear USB still use lots of silly drivers to get them to work. The best I've used lately is Syvecs which uses LAN, which is pretty foolproof and far faster than the rest. Some people just like changing Windows versions for the sake of it. For a laptop used for tuning it does absolutely nothing a fully tried and tested version of Windows offers. 9.85 @ 145mph
|
||||||
|
16540 Posts Member #: 4241 King Gaycharger, butt plug dealer, Sheldon Cooper and a BAC but generally a niceish fella if you dont mind a northerner Rotherham, South Yorkshire |
20th Dec, 2015 at 03:45:33pm
As a general rule of thumb, if it works on windows 7 64bit then 99% of the time it will work on w8 & 10. Lack of serial port is the main issue. The o.s. Doesn't cause that, just the proliferation of shite cheap hardware from china.
On 11th Feb, 2015 robert said:
i tried putting soap on it , and heating it to brown , then slathered my new lube on it
|
||||||
|
3588 Posts Member #: 655 Post Whore Northern Ireland |
20th Dec, 2015 at 05:16:46pm
On 20th Dec, 2015 apbellamy said:
As a general rule of thumb, if it works on windows 7 64bit then 99% of the time it will work on w8 & 10. Lack of serial port is the main issue. The o.s. Doesn't cause that, just the proliferation of shite cheap hardware from china. When will ecus go pure usb like most things did in the late 90s. Hopefully most ecu makers will wise up and ditch USB too in favour of LAN. USB is a step up from Serial, but still not foolproof and still USB is strangely slow when sending or pulling information from ecu's or dash displays. And whilst you say it isnt a Windows issue that some hardware/software doesnt work with newer versions....of course it is. Why would they work when they havent been designed to work on the newer stuff, never been tested etc ? You just hope it will work with the new OS, but as anyone upgrading knows, there is always something that doesnt work properly after an upgrade. Just because Windows claim the new stuff is backwards compatible...doesnt mean they're telling the truth. They just hope or think it's backwards compatible, but quite often it is not the case. They simply cant test every single piece of software and hardware out there to ensure it will work, so there are lots of assumptions made. 9.85 @ 145mph
|
||||||
 (2)[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/150672766@N03/]Rod Sugden[/url], on Fli) 5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
20th Dec, 2015 at 05:41:01pm
As usual, the topic has drifted well of course, but I'll add my thoughts.
On 20th Dec, 2015 apbellamy said:
When will ecus go pure usb like most things did in the late 90s. Why should they ? It's called backwards compatibility, something Bill Gates seems to have forgotten about despite everything he said in the past. To be fair, many do, but use either the prolific chipset or, more commonly, the FTDI to achieve it. But, as you say, that's not native USB, just a workaround. People writing ECU code don't need a really fast serial link, just a reliable one. And the reliable one has worked for many years. The tuners, firmware writers etc. don't care what the cable is, they just care that it works. They probably also prefer the relatively simple data stream of RS232 which is primarily one device to another, not multiple devices. The good writers/harware suppliers also use CAN or I2C. Neither are a PC specific protacol but they work well with EMS ECUs. I'm no expert but I get the impression USB is not really EMS ECU friendly unless you just a cable/chip to convert it to plain serial. On 20th Dec, 2015 apbellamy said:
As a general rule of thumb, if it works on windows 7 64bit then 99% of the time it will work on w8 & 10. Lack of serial port is the main issue. The o.s. Doesn't cause that, just the proliferation of shite cheap hardware from china. Again, personal opinion, I absolutely hate W7. I wouldn't even dream of touching W8, 8.1 or 10. I had to replace my laptop a year ago and the best buy I could find had W8 pre-installed. When I first started it up I thought, WTF, I bought a laptop, not and overgrown mobile phone with a touchscreen that doesn't work. So I upgraded to W8.1 and got another pretend mobile phone with a touchscreen that doesn't exist. Many mouse clicks later I could get it to almost look like a normal laptop, rather than a mobile phone, but just not worth the effort. So I bought a new HDD for it and tried to instal XP..... Abject failure because one of the chipsets on the motherboard requires a driver that has never been written for XP. So I reluctantly purchased a licence for W7 and installed that, and I absolutely hate it, Bill trying to tell me how I should structure my directories and files and preventing me doing it how I want. And, because it's a licenced copy of W7 I keep getting Bill sending me pop-up windows offering me to upgrade to W10 for free - 10 million people have..... Well Fuck off Bill, I don't want to, I will teach myself Linux before I ever install W10. Or I'll just switch to an android tablet because that will actually have a touchscreen. And to try and drag it back on topic, TunerStudio, which is obviously built around the MegaSquirt/Microsquirt range of products, apart from compatibility with all the Windows newer crap, has a Linux version, and has an android version (shadowdash) that works on android tablets and mobile phones, and some other developers have additional android applications (ie, MS Droid). So, leave me in the dark ages with XP and a nice RS232 cable and FTDI chipset. Because it works. Rant over. EDIT - typos Edited by Rod S on 20th Dec, 2015. Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
||||||
|
16540 Posts Member #: 4241 King Gaycharger, butt plug dealer, Sheldon Cooper and a BAC but generally a niceish fella if you dont mind a northerner Rotherham, South Yorkshire |
20th Dec, 2015 at 05:42:01pm
Depends on the manufacturer. If you buy cheap shite then chances are it won't work. Dell provided xp drivers up until the enf of 2013 when support for the o.s.formally ended.
On 11th Feb, 2015 robert said:
i tried putting soap on it , and heating it to brown , then slathered my new lube on it
|
||||||
|
5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
20th Dec, 2015 at 06:07:13pm
On 20th Dec, 2015 apbellamy said:
Depends on the manufacturer. If you buy cheap shite then chances are it won't work. Dell provided xp drivers up until the enf of 2013 when support for the o.s.formally ended. Most mainstream manufactures (HP, Lenovo etc) are m.s. Certified, so just work. If you buy cheap hardware, chances are it's a gamble. HP laptop Andy (HP 255 to be precise, so not the top range model, but not the cheapest, but on your list). No XP drivers available so I'm forced to use W7 even with a new HDD. But my point really was about the backwards compatibiliy. What is really so wrong about using RS232 to programme a single EMS ECU ? Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
||||||
 9502 Posts Member #: 1023 Post Whore Doncaster, South Yorkshire |
20th Dec, 2015 at 07:00:02pm
Windows 7 was an abortion, windows 8.1 is very different from xp ( where i stayed untill forced to upgrade)
Yes i moved to the darkside |
||||||
|
3588 Posts Member #: 655 Post Whore Northern Ireland |
20th Dec, 2015 at 07:02:44pm
On 20th Dec, 2015 Rod S said:
People writing ECU code don't need a really fast serial link, just a reliable one. I'll pick up on this one comment. People writing ecu code may not need fast data transfer. The person tuning the engine will absolutely want fast reliable data transfer. As you say, even USB can be poor at this, but is a step up from serial....or at least should be in terms of speed. A direct serial port is more reliable though ( not an adaptor ) My biggest gripe with most ecu's is datalog downloading. Most force you to shut the engine down and then take ages via either serial or USB to pull very small files for the length of time taken. In some cases minutes ! WTF ! Syvecs via LAN excels here, no need to shut down the engine or anything like that and all info is pulled in a few seconds at most. Or if you want to stream data to laptop whilst also tuning you have that option too. So whilst off topic as far as coil configuration goes, IMO communications, tuning software etc are all vital things to consider when choosing what ecu you might want to use 9.85 @ 145mph
|
||||||
|
16540 Posts Member #: 4241 King Gaycharger, butt plug dealer, Sheldon Cooper and a BAC but generally a niceish fella if you dont mind a northerner Rotherham, South Yorkshire |
20th Dec, 2015 at 07:57:31pm
I missed your rather long post Rod whilst writing mine.
On 11th Feb, 2015 robert said:
i tried putting soap on it , and heating it to brown , then slathered my new lube on it
|
||||||
|
5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
21st Dec, 2015 at 09:36:14am
On 20th Dec, 2015 apbellamy said:
Rs232 is nearly as old as me. Why would manufacturers keep making it? Dialup internet works, but technology has moved on. Manufacturers at large or EMS/ECU specifically ? I guess at large because it's a basic comms protocol that is simple and works. And no backwards compatibility issues with what must be millions of items out there using it still. EMS/ECUs, presumably, like I said earlier, because it is simple and is all that is needed to load the tables/setting on the ECU. It wouldn't surprise me if lots of the EMS/ECUs out there that appear to have a USB connection don't simply have the RS232 chip hidden in the case and the drivers loaded with the tuning software. For more modern stuff, particularly data and control as Stevie mentions, there are other protocols. I'm not familiar with the one Stevie mentioned but the obvious one to me is CAN which is pretty much an automotive standard (because it is very tolerant of noise) and used by pretty much every OEM now to link all the various ecu/microcontroller modules dotted around a modern car. So, whilst considering choice of EMS/ECU it's expandability is worth considering. CAN (the one I'm familiar with) is fully integrated into the Megasquirt range from V2 onwards and is used by myself and many others. There is OBD2 as Brett mentioned but I think that's primarily for diagnostics. Another, less common but used by Alan To (14point7) and Jean for AFR digital data and displays is I2C. (I also use it for my AFR readings so am quite familiar with it). You say, quite rightly, technology has moved on, but if you take my example above of AFR data collection/display, the majority of wideband controllers are based around a 0-5V analogue output and most EMS/ECUs expect a 0-5V input. Using an analogue signal can be quite inaccurate because of noise and ground offsets. Probably the most widely known manufacturer of wideband controllers that do offer digital data for EMS/ECUs that can accept it (or PCs/laptops for logging) is Innovate. And the data protocol they use is, guess what, RS232. They just use small 3 pin jack plugs rather than large DB9 connectors, but it's still RS232. The only one I know of that uses something more "modern" is the 14point7 stuff. There may be others but I only know of that one because I use it alongside some of Jean's stuff and some of my own. So way off topic of choice of coils but something to think about when chosing your EMS/ECU is most certainly expandability and future proofing. (sorry, another long post). Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
||||||
 10020 Posts Member #: 1456 Mongo Barnsley, South Flatcapshire |
21st Dec, 2015 at 09:54:13am
On 20th Dec, 2015 Rod S said: I've seen this as a good thing, it's given me something to read.
As usual, the topic has drifted well of course, but I'll add my thoughts. If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of. |
||||||
 8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
21st Dec, 2015 at 10:00:34am
Back to the original topic, there is a UK supplier that will build you exactly what you need in whatever configuration, but you will need to move up the MS model range to at least MS2:
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
|
||||||
|
10020 Posts Member #: 1456 Mongo Barnsley, South Flatcapshire |
21st Dec, 2015 at 10:02:24am
On 21st Dec, 2015 Paul S said:
I thought that we were all going cable free these days? Is this not just rs232 over bluetooth though or is it a different protocol? If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of. |
||||||
|
8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
21st Dec, 2015 at 10:18:46am
On 21st Dec, 2015 John said:
On 21st Dec, 2015 Paul S said:
I thought that we were all going cable free these days? Is this not just rs232 over bluetooth though or is it a different protocol? I'm using RS232 over bluetooth but it is perfectly adequate for what these days is a minute amount of data. I also have USB connectivity, but I don't know if it is RS232. I just need to know that it works and is reliable, which it is. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
|
||||||
|
4890 Posts Member #: 1775 Post Whore Chester |
21st Dec, 2015 at 10:41:05am
True with the wireless, the last day at the dyno on my car was all Bluetooth, and it never missed a beat, I was impressed with all the noise around. I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
|
||||||
|
5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
21st Dec, 2015 at 11:20:47am
On 21st Dec, 2015 John said:
Is this not just rs232 over bluetooth though or is it a different protocol? Just RS232, on an average Megasquirt at least, as the bluetooth adapter is usually plugged into the DB9 socket. Whether other EMS/ECUs use some newer protocol over bluetooth or not, I simply don't know. Ironically, on my MS2 at least, the speed of data transfer for logging is not limited by the use of RS232, but more the amount of hardware and the older firmware that I use. The I2C connection that I use for digital AFR readings and digital displays is, however, incredibly fast. So sometimes progress is worthwhile but my setup is quite unique. EDIT - typo. Edited by Rod S on 21st Dec, 2015. Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
||||||
|
264 Posts Member #: 11029 Senior Member Crewe |
24th Jan, 2016 at 07:56:43pm
i had one of Phils extra efi megasquirts for my vauxhall based haynes roadster i got it all wired up and running but thats as far as i got before the kids and job took over. Few teething issues that did not manifest on the jimstim but that were only apparent on the vehicle two trips back and a trigger wheel setup before we found out. Outside the box |
||||||
| Home > A-Series EFI / Injection > Coil configuration with Micrasquirt | |||||||
|
|||||||
| Page: |