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Site Admin  9403 Posts Member #: 58 455bhp per ton 12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini Sunny Bridgend, South Wales |
30th Sep, 2014 at 07:56:58am
Can we have more videos of Victoria? she looks impressive Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing
On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:
I think the welsh one has it right! 1st to provide running proof of turbo twinkie in a car and first to run a 1/4 in one!! Is your data backed up?? directbackup.net one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials |
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 11046 Posts Member #: 965 Post Whore Preston On The Brook |
30th Sep, 2014 at 08:43:58am
On 30th Sep, 2014 slater said:
Theres not an easy injection route using the 5 port head. Turbo or not. That is a missguided statement.......... On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be... So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'... On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........ |
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11046 Posts Member #: 965 Post Whore Preston On The Brook |
30th Sep, 2014 at 08:47:38am
On 30th Sep, 2014 Jimster said:
Can we have more videos of Victoria? she looks impressive I realy am surprised at you Jim, I didn't think you were interested in short skinny flat chested women........ On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be... So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'... On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........ |
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 8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
30th Sep, 2014 at 09:42:02am
On 30th Sep, 2014 Sprocket said:
On 30th Sep, 2014 slater said:
Theres not an easy injection route using the 5 port head. Turbo or not. That is a missguided statement.......... True, but it is the general consensus. It's more to do with the individuals general understanding of fuel injection and the peculiarities of 5 port application than the problem itself IMHO. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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 (2)[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/150672766@N03/]Rod Sugden[/url], on Fli) 5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
30th Sep, 2014 at 03:58:08pm
On 30th Sep, 2014 Sprocket said:
That is a missguided statement.......... Agreed. On 30th Sep, 2014 Paul S said:
True, but it is the general consensus. It's more to do with the individuals general understanding of fuel injection and the peculiarities of 5 port application than the problem itself IMHO. Agreed. What I would add is that very few actually have the necissary dual widebands installed on a turbo 5 port head to actually see what is happening because it's quite complicated to make a dual wideband setup work on a turbo install because the LSUs are pressure and heat sensitive (pressure before the turbo being the accuracy factor, the heat will just shorten their life, but if they are subjected to pressure they will just read wrong). I can count on the fingers of one hand the people I know who have installed dual widebands on a 5 port turbo. There may be others but, if so, they keep the data to themselves. Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
30th Sep, 2014 at 06:11:00pm
It's not so much the fact that people do not fit the twin widebands, but the fact that they do not understand the need and what to do with the data once they have it. IMHO. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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 1030 Posts Member #: 1291 Post Whore Suffolk / Birmingham |
30th Sep, 2014 at 08:54:02pm
All sounds very easy guys!! |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
30th Sep, 2014 at 09:19:25pm
It is easy, if you understand the issues and how to deal with them.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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 16540 Posts Member #: 4241 King Gaycharger, butt plug dealer, Sheldon Cooper and a BAC but generally a niceish fella if you dont mind a northerner Rotherham, South Yorkshire |
1st Oct, 2014 at 06:43:14pm
Change the record Paul. On 11th Feb, 2015 robert said:
i tried putting soap on it , and heating it to brown , then slathered my new lube on it 
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
1st Oct, 2014 at 07:50:31pm
Andy,
Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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16540 Posts Member #: 4241 King Gaycharger, butt plug dealer, Sheldon Cooper and a BAC but generally a niceish fella if you dont mind a northerner Rotherham, South Yorkshire |
2nd Oct, 2014 at 08:05:26am
I sold the second wideband in the end as a) I was skint and b) my offer to do so got pretty much zero response.
On 11th Feb, 2015 robert said:
i tried putting soap on it , and heating it to brown , then slathered my new lube on it
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
2nd Oct, 2014 at 08:23:49am
On 2nd Oct, 2014 apbellamy said:
My comment is more around MS Siamese based injection being the only way to properly inject an A Series. Well, in my opinion, it's not. There are plenty of setups out there that will get you 95% of the way there and be good enough for the vast majority. I'm not aware of anybody running an injected 5 port that has suffered major engine damage due to a lack of port injection. So where above did I say it was? I'm very concious of the alternatives and that is why I have not promoted port injection as the only way to do it in a long time. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
2nd Oct, 2014 at 02:18:42pm
On 2nd Oct, 2014 apbellamy said: Not from me, I remember saying I would like to see the results but I can see where you are coming from if no-one else was enthusiastic.
my offer to do so got pretty much zero response. On 2nd Oct, 2014 apbellamy said: All I have ever suggested is that, for PORT injection, you need an ECU that can vary the timing and pulse widths between inners and outers. That is exactly what Rover did with the MPI.
My comment is more around MS Siamese based injection being the only way to properly inject an A Series. Well, in my opinion, it's not. There are plenty of setups out there that will get you 95% of the way there and be good enough for the vast majority. I'm not aware of anybody ever running an injected 5 port that has suffered major engine damage due to a lack of port injection. For those using a batch type wet manifold system (aka an electronic carb) I don't doubt for a minute it will produce better results than filing needles on SU carbs. My comment(s) remain, no-one has yet to show any AFR data (between inners and outers) on such a setup. If you really want to shoot me down in flames, just say numerous members on TM have destroyed pistons with a carb and no-one yet has with efi on a 5 port and most of the efi setups are wet manifold. The trouble is lack of data for the alternatives. Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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16540 Posts Member #: 4241 King Gaycharger, butt plug dealer, Sheldon Cooper and a BAC but generally a niceish fella if you dont mind a northerner Rotherham, South Yorkshire |
3rd Oct, 2014 at 08:00:27am
It's as much the tone of the posts as the content. Being made to feel inferior on a fairly regular basis isn't particularly pleasant... On 11th Feb, 2015 robert said:
i tried putting soap on it , and heating it to brown , then slathered my new lube on it
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 4890 Posts Member #: 1775 Post Whore Chester |
3rd Oct, 2014 at 10:01:17am
I'm in Andy's "Gay" camp.. and I'm struggling to get the car running as well as it did on a carb.
Edited by gr4h4m on 3rd Oct, 2014. I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
3rd Oct, 2014 at 10:50:55am
On 3rd Oct, 2014 gr4h4m said:
Anyway we jumping all over the OP thread. True, I'm quite happy if you want to start a new one wrt supercharged injection but I'll reply here in the meantime..... On 3rd Oct, 2014 gr4h4m said:
I guess Andy would have had the same issue as the SC ECU doesn't come with dual support so trying to match the data afterwards would be a little difficult. Plus the data logging on the SC ECU seems to be shit. I mean there is a sequence to saving the file that if you don't follow it doesn't capture anything. I would be very surprised if the SC ECU can't look at two widebands. That's fairly straightforward (just adding a couple of extra components) on the MS2/3 which most people would consider to be "cheap and cheerful" - wrongly I must stress but it is a common perception. It may be on the SC it has to be setup as an analogue input or something, I doubt if SC would expect you to have to do any DIY like we do with an MS. I've never used the SC kit but I've seen the hardware when JK showed me around their place a while ago and it looked very well designed/built. I've never tried the software (obviously) but I can't deny that you, Colin and Tom have all said pretty much the same about it. On 3rd Oct, 2014 gr4h4m said:
Just to add if I can get the data I'm more than happy to share it. just don't know if I can get it out in the first place... Maybe two computers that I video on the rollers :) Good, all my comments on this subject have been trying to say there is a very limited amount of real data on the AFR split, I don't think any yet on a wet manifold type setup, and the data from the few port injection setups just shows that if you have an ECU with the ability to alter timing and/or pulsewidths between the inners and outers, it's pretty easy to make them the same. Hopefully there is an easier way for you than video'ing two PCs..... EDIT - just had a look at SC's site and found this page 
and, assuming you are (both) using the Typhoon, whilst it only has one dedicated wideband input (strange as the other versions have two), it has three linear analogue sensor inputs (the line above in the chart). Just use one of those, not for any engine control, just to log the data. All widebands that I know of will give a 0-5V linear output over a given AFR range irrespective of any more fancv stuff they might do. If the SC software is "reasonable" you should be able to define a scale of AFR for the 0-5V (the ratio will be in the WB instructions/manual). Edited by Rod S on 3rd Oct, 2014. Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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 696 Posts Member #: 10034 Post Whore Birmingham |
3rd Oct, 2014 at 12:07:06pm
On 2nd Oct, 2014 Rod S said:
For those using a batch type wet manifold system (aka an electronic carb) I don't doubt for a minute it will produce better results than filing needles on SU carbs. My comment(s) remain, no-one has yet to show any AFR data (between inners and outers) on such a setup. I had intended to run a single 02 sensor on a mild 998 turbo. The project has taken a turn and will now be a 1293 turbo that is a few months from completion, so I need to rethink my solution very shortly. I can't see (don't understand) any reason why single injector wet manifold is any worse than a carb. Given that carb turbos can make big numbers, I'd much prefer to stick with the single injector for as long as possible than do port injection, simply because this would be an easier route for me. 1) Is my plan feasible? 2) Would data from twin widebands in this configuration be of use? |
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
3rd Oct, 2014 at 12:19:59pm
On 3rd Oct, 2014 PhilR said:
I can't see (don't understand) any reason why single injector wet manifold is any worse than a carb. Given that carb turbos can make big numbers, I'd much prefer to stick with the single injector for as long as possible than do port injection, simply because this would be an easier route for me. As I said above, it probably isn't any worse (provided you run four squirts per cycle). On a technicality, the only thing that makes it worse is that injection is a series of discrete pulses whereas a carb is continuous mixing - discrete pulses may be more likely to get to the wrong cylinder. However, the ability to control everything on the fly, compared to filing needles, changing dashpot oil/springs, adding "tee piece" tricks, etc, etc, probably far outweighs that technicality. But see below... On 3rd Oct, 2014 PhilR said:
Would data from twin widebands in this configuration be of use? Only to see what is actually happening. Unless you get really inventive there is little you can do to change the relative AFRs on a wet manifold setup. All I have ever tried to say (and apparently been mis-understood) is no-one yet has done this to see how good/bad it really is. Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
3rd Oct, 2014 at 12:29:56pm
I'm fairly confident that I could get a wet manifold setup to give acceptable AFR distribution with the MS2 in sequential mode, the correct size injectors and injection strategy.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
3rd Oct, 2014 at 12:42:11pm
On 3rd Oct, 2014 Paul S said:
Just saying  We think alike.... hence my "unless you get really inventive". I think it would take a lot of experimenting to get right but the starting point is two widebands..... Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
3rd Oct, 2014 at 12:44:18pm
Not that I'll try it.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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696 Posts Member #: 10034 Post Whore Birmingham |
3rd Oct, 2014 at 01:22:52pm
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11046 Posts Member #: 965 Post Whore Preston On The Brook |
3rd Oct, 2014 at 06:11:15pm
How much does a ready built MS3 suitable for siamese port injection cost these days? excluding the widebands and associated sensors..... just the black box? On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be... So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'... On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........ |
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
3rd Oct, 2014 at 06:48:23pm
On 3rd Oct, 2014 Sprocket said:
How much does a ready built MS3 suitable for siamese port injection cost these days? excluding the widebands and associated sensors..... just the black box? You don't need an MS3, in fact you can't run the siamese code on the MS3, the variable injection timing is done in a more generic way with MS3. The siamese code (as it is usually known, it's actually now just an option in the MS2-E code) is specific to MS2. I haven't a clue how to answer your question Colin, you well know that most of the MS range is predominantly DIY. Yes, you can buy it pre-built for a lot of applications but for the A series running the siamese code, especially if you want staged injection, I doubt you will get it off the shelf. The off the shelf installs are more down to mainstream cars. I could build an MS2 siamese (using the standard mainboard which I hate, but mostly Jean's boards) with staged injection for less than £300. I can add two widebands using 14point7 stuff and Jean's IOx (which gives digital AFR inputs, not 0-5V) for pretty much the same again. Add two more widebands (ie, both outers individually, inner and after turbo) for not much more. Biggest cost of such a setup is the LSUs themselves. BUT, and a really big but, that is a lot of DIY. You can't really compare what is possible with Megasquirt to off the shelf systems. Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
3rd Oct, 2014 at 07:09:11pm
On 3rd Oct, 2014 Sprocket said:
How much does a ready built MS3 suitable for siamese port injection cost these days? excluding the widebands and associated sensors..... just the black box? £550 - £600 ish. Just wire it in an go You probably wont even need to open the case.
Edited by Paul S on 3rd Oct, 2014. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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