Specialist Components 5 Port Kit for A-Series
Turbo Mini Forums

I never used a plenum. There is no need. If you have multiple TBs then you need a plenum to equalise the flow in each one. If you only have one TB, then there is no need. Photo below of my setup.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

www.twin-turbo.co.uk

Wow. Ok. That I DIDN'T know!
Any more pics I can look at? You got MAP only or TPS there?

1132cc Turbo ~120 bananas ATW - Fun Fun Fun

When I looked at the car pretty sure there is a MAP sensor on there.

If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of.

MAP and TPS, yes. All fuel and ignition referenced to MAP, TPS used for acceleration enrichment.

That's the best photo I have really, this one show's less.

Edited by wil_h on 2nd Nov, 2011.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

www.twin-turbo.co.uk

If you are going to measure EGTs, don't be misled into thinking that equal temperatures on the inner and outer cylinders means equal AFRs.

I did extensive testing with widebands and thermocouples in 2008/9. the only time that I saw equal EGTs was when the AFRs were 4 points apart ie. 15:1 on the outers and 11:1 on the inners.

On the 5 Port, the EGTs on the inner cylinders were around 120-130 Deg C higher than the outers at equal AFRs.

Ths is because the thermocouple will measure 2 exhaust pulses on the inner cylinder each cycle, as oposed to only one on the outers. Thermocouples are not quick enough to pick up cyclic variations, in fact they probably can only give the average over several revolutions.

Subsequent to the testing, I've developed a simulation model of the 5 Port, this is the ouput of EGTs on a typical NA engine:



This is a very similar looking plot to those I've seen in the leading text books on the subject.

As well as the difference in the average exhaust gas temperature due to the pulses, there is also extra heat in the centre exhaust port due to the operating temperature of the head. The simulation calculates the heat loss through the port wall, based on material and port wall thickness. As there is a higher port wall temperature, there is less heat transfer from the gas to the head in the centre port.

The difference in the average EGT is about 129.6 Deg C in this instance which seems to back up my earlier testing.

Edited by Paul S on 2nd Nov, 2011.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

So will TPS help much. I know earlier you had varying MAP voltage but is TPS really needed?

1132cc Turbo ~120 bananas ATW - Fun Fun Fun

Thanks Paul. Yes I understand and appreciate the detail. I will measure with two O2 sensors in a similar setup to yours as long as 1. I can get the right O2 sensors (help) and read them with Typhoon.

I'll add as I go. But will try to get it all I first go.

Cheers,
Peter

1132cc Turbo ~120 bananas ATW - Fun Fun Fun

Yes, you need the TPS for acceleration enrichment, otherwise when you put your foot down it will go lean (just like your carb).

It's all part of the wiring that comes wit hthe kit anyway.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

www.twin-turbo.co.uk

Cool - now just sitting by the mailbox waiting.

1132cc Turbo ~120 bananas ATW - Fun Fun Fun

Peter,

Just to reinforce what Paul has said,



EGTs top right, 100 degrees centigrade apart at fast idle with AFRs nearly identical inner/outer (top left or green and red trace at the bottom, ignore the orange, that's after the turbo and I have a small offset due to using TechEdge for the two before the turbo and Innovate for the one after the turbo).

I have seen differences of over 150 C during static testing at higher RPMs with AFRs still being maintained equal thanks to the MS2-Extra siamese code.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Hey Rod (and Paul) - thanks... so are Paul and you saying I CANT get that done with the TBI setup? ie/ the inner and outer AFR the same - or that it will take alot of tweaking?

I know of a motor here which made >220hp at the crank that was using an SC TBI setup, the only difference was we had to move the injectors away from the inlet (well, one behind the butterfly and one in the plenum basically) didn't see AFR on the branches though as it was setup for a common AFR reading, its still running too... I think lol.

Dont get me wrong, I am not arguing AT ALL - I am genuinly asking... if it CANT be done unless its port injection and the risk is the outers leaning out - im happy to take that risk, if it CAN be done but with tuning and maybe customising the position of the throttle body (ie, closer to intercooler and further from the inlet) then thats a plus.

Pete.

1132cc Turbo ~120 bananas ATW - Fun Fun Fun

We don't know the answer to that. You will have to find out for yourself.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Not negative at all...

I guess I will be finding out soon

Now, I have read and read and read and for the life of me cant find anywhere and work out why this has not been done yet.
I wont be putting the O2 sensors on with the SU (but as typing this I might actually!) but I will eventually with the TBI setup. Has no-one else got a blow through setup with SC TBI kit and measured the O2??? I am not bringing up the arguments had in the past - I am just very surprised none of you UK boys have done it.
I might be a numpty but it doesnt seem that hard to test right??
John never posted the results and thats 100% fine with me (obviously, I still bought a kit!!!) and I think thats his right - to not put it up. However so many of you guys trial and test so much (and many others learn so much) that I am really surprised that this hasnt been done yet.

Ill have a chat to Graham and we will muck about a bit.
Part of the reason I went a 998/1100 was that if something goes BANG! its not big $$ to replace replacing large journal 1275 parts I might be able to afford but they are getting a little rare now

Ah the joys of Mini's - cant wait for it to arrive and get it on.

Rod/Paul - can you please do me one thing, I looked at a photo with the pipes coming up to measure your AFRs but not 100% on how its done on yours.
I am thinking a 5mm s/s pipe welded onto the 2/3 runner and 4 runner with the fitting for the O2 sensor on the end right? Have I mis-read your AFR sampling setup?

Cheers,
Peter (the SC TBI/Blow Through Turbo/ Smallbore) Pioneer lol

1132cc Turbo ~120 bananas ATW - Fun Fun Fun

I used 6mm stainless pipe.

You can also make them out on this picture between the turbo and the head:

Edited by Paul S on 2nd Nov, 2011.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

6mm OD for me too (compression fittings, not welded).



Then about 16mm after the chambers down to the exhaust after the turbo.
The principle is to keep the sample chambers at post turbo uniform pressure irrespective of the pre-turbo pressure and temperature.

Thermocouples also in this photo.



Hope that helps.

And why has no-one else done it ???

Well others have (or are doing so), but it's kind of imperative if you are working with any sequential/timed (or siamese) code or you would be running blind.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Apart from all this EGT/AFR stuff, I'm intruiged as to how you are going to fuel 200hp from 2 injectors and get a good idle?

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

He doesn't mention 200nana's does he? He just mentions ~20psi on an 1132cc engine.

Either way I see your point Paul.

If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of.

Guys thanks heaps, Paul - wow thats alot of intercooler piping - and pretty big... any lag issues ? or have you measured the boost pre intercooler and after? Just curious.
As for the 200hp - I want to make that - hell yeah - but dont think I will. Time will tell.

The motor I mentioned before made 220+hp on Grahams engine dyno (not rolling road) and the thing is mental!
It was rough and lumpy and angry down low but when its on boost it is absolutely ridiculous. I WISH I knew how it was setup exactly but the owner got REALLY upset when I posted any dyno figures and pics, let alone share anything else. Only Graham and the owner know the details... I only know the figures as I was there in the room, and writing down torque and correction factor, etc. I think its when it was at 26psi boost by the way...

Peter

1132cc Turbo ~120 bananas ATW - Fun Fun Fun

Only limited testing so far. One quarter pass at a 4k rev limit before the heavens opened. Wrapped up for winter now :(

When it does come out to play it will have enough instruments to measure every temperature and pressure throughout the system.

We have anti-lag if it is an issue, which I doubt.

220hp is an impressive number but from a 1293 on 26 psi and a carb, we would expect much more. There are a number of 5 Ports running 200-250hp from less than 20 psi boost, I think.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

That'll be the same dyno that shows Grahams engines are better than anyone elses. Much in the same way as Peter Baldwins dyno over here, over inflated power figures. The numbers don't really mean much on theirown on and thats why we dont really use the term 'Horse Power' but rather Bananas, or Baldwins, in the case above, as they might as well be, they could be oranges if you wanted, perhaps Russells?

Yep. If anyone says "my car has got xxxBHP" to me I always take it with a pinch of salt.

Hence my sig saying nana's about my cars.

If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of.

A bit late, but here is how I have my O2 sensors piped up.

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

Thanks Graham - so in principal its all take sampling via 5-7mm S/S tube, then O2 sensors, and return into dump pipe... will be a bit messy on mine I thing but I have a plan...

Whoa ...

Sprocket - respectfully - lets not take this thread down the path of who's dyno reads what - its ll relative. Hypothetically, if all other motors on Grahams dyno managed a max of 180hp and this one 220hp its STILL more powerful than the others. I was referring to the massive amount of power from this thing not the number itself really.
Paul S - I MIGHT have the numbers wrong there, being honest - it may have been the 220 odd HP on <20psi and hit much much more when the boost solenoid (or wastegate - cant recall) got stuck. Doesnt really matter, point was actually that the SC injection was capable of a massive amount of power and timing and fuel was working fine...

John, etc - I know that on TM we use 'bananas' and I respect that (hence my signature) but REALLY you are all talking the same thing - wether we call it nana's or lemons or oranges or anything - its representing HP - so same thing really.


I am really enjoying the info so far on this thread and hoping that together we can find ways to improve A-series wether it be Boosted or not and EFI or not... I am also exstatic that the Typhoon will give me Electronic boost control (not that other ECUs dont do that - but because it wasnt something I planned so its a bonus


To make this whole AFR issue complete though - really I would need to check the AFR with the current setup then again with the TBI right, otherwise we only have the TBI to reference and it tells half the story.

hmmmmm, so Paul/Rod - the issue with having the pre-turbo O2 sensor (on the branches) that they cant handle the heat or positive pressure? - how does Subaru do it on the WRX?
See pic below

1132cc Turbo ~120 bananas ATW - Fun Fun Fun

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???