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 8297 Posts Member #: 408 Turbo Love Palace Fool Aylesbury |
14th May, 2009 at 02:20:16pm
On 13th May, 2009 Paul S said:
The problem with big injectors is that they are supposed to be problematic at idle. Hence, I'm reluctant to take too great a step in that direction. However, I've not had an idle problem with four large (480cc) high z injectors, although pulse widths were very low, less than 2mS. I've just bought a set of four 630cc high z injectors for the 1293 turbo. So I could try those on the 1030 engine. Paul, im running the 480cc injectors and on low idle (850-900rpm) the pulse width is well below 2mS. Mine idles really well only using the igniton timing to keep the idle steady. Would it be an option to run the larger injectors but just increase the idle to a point where the PW are 'acceptable' then if they prove to work well in the rest of the rev range, have another look at the idle control? https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fusion-Fabri..._homepage_panel
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1267 Posts Member #: 831 Post Whore Montreal, Canada |
14th May, 2009 at 02:43:11pm
On 14th May, 2009 Gerald O said:
What happens with the existing code when the timing for the two pulses overlaps? Does it effectively result in a single longer pulse? If the overlap is small, what happens is that the second pulse start is delayed until the next wheel tooth and there is still a gap between the pulses. When the overlap increases, the second pulse start is still pushed to the following tooth but the gap disappears and the resulting single pulse is no longer the sum of the 2 pulses. This is a good way to handle overlapping pulses in a non-siamese engine since the pulses are evenly distributed. However, it doesn't work on the siamese engine with the 2 pulses one after the other followed by a large gap. Therefore this situation must be avoided by advancing the inner cylinder injection timing. Jean |
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 (2)[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/150672766@N03/]Rod Sugden[/url], on Fli) 5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
14th May, 2009 at 02:59:09pm
Matty, two questions....
Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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 8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
14th May, 2009 at 03:12:11pm
On 14th May, 2009 jbelanger said:
On 14th May, 2009 Gerald O said:
What happens with the existing code when the timing for the two pulses overlaps? Does it effectively result in a single longer pulse? If the overlap is small, what happens is that the second pulse start is delayed until the next wheel tooth and there is still a gap between the pulses. When the overlap increases, the second pulse start is still pushed to the following tooth but the gap disappears and the resulting single pulse is no longer the sum of the 2 pulses. This is a good way to handle overlapping pulses in a non-siamese engine since the pulses are evenly distributed. However, it doesn't work on the siamese engine with the 2 pulses one after the other followed by a large gap. Therefore this situation must be avoided by advancing the inner cylinder injection timing. Jean When Rod has finished the bathroom, I'm hoping that he will get his new scope working and tell us exactly what happens. The pulse from the MS is only one aspect, the ability of the injector to start flowing again is more critical in my opinion. Matty, the problem we have is that two 375cc injectors only allow decent AFRs up to 3000rpm using the two pulse mode on my engine. So I could use four 375cc injectors, a total of 1500cc to get that up to 6000rpm in NA mode. But to then apply the turbo charger, I would need a total injector capacity of around 3000cc/min for one bar boost. The 480cc injectors are OK, but we need to go much bigger with the two pulse mode. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
14th May, 2009 at 03:50:46pm
On 14th May, 2009 Paul S said:
When Rod has finished the bathroom, I'm hoping that he will get his new scope working and tell us exactly what happens. Ouch.... PM me your latest msq and I'll run it tomorrow on the scope - tell me what RPM etc you want to see it at. No tiles today, I've actually had a break (not literally) at 78 to go, and been finishing soldering my wiring loom today... 
What a pain..... It's a lot better now with all the heat shrink on. Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
14th May, 2009 at 03:55:16pm
Your soldering gets better towards the end Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
14th May, 2009 at 04:44:53pm
On 14th May, 2009 Paul S said:
Your soldering gets better towards the end Yep.... but it looks worse to the left as the injector wires have to bridge two terminals and these Dsub connectors are supposed to have a single SMALL wire soldered into each individual teminal..... Whilst doing it the word "VEMS" kept coming into my mind.... but I managed to push it away 
I've still got the earlier msq files you sent so I'll try them both. 8 to go here (once the mirror is glued in place 
and the final 70 here 
over 350 in total.... Anyway, back out to the garage to finish the relay/fuse block... Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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326 Posts Member #: 1323 Senior Member |
14th May, 2009 at 11:34:30pm
you should do a bath/shower/wet room with 100mm hand made french tiles , with a colour mosaic
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
15th May, 2009 at 10:35:18am
On 14th May, 2009 carl talbot said:
you wouldn't be moaning about a bit of fiddly soldering !! When you get to my age, you moan about anything and everything :) Right, scope connected 
I haven't bothered setting suitable scales etc. yet because it's triggering on channel A (quick and easy just to check everything works) but it can't make its mind up whether to trigger on the first or second pulse. So I'm off to see how to get the external trigger to work (involves a bit more fiddly wiring....) I want it triggering off our phase pulse (cam) as Jean says that is a constant engine degrees - then we can actually see the injection timing moving across the screen. It's your msq Paul, hence the different pulse widths. Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
15th May, 2009 at 10:47:06am
Great.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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 1849 Posts Member #: 672 The oversills police Oslo, Norway |
15th May, 2009 at 11:58:19am
looking at that sad looking connector I am glad I went for the VEMS ... It was one of THE reasons I chose one over the other. Still, MS is the choice for siamese port injection, so I am following with interest. You guys sure put down a lot of time in this, looks promising though! |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
15th May, 2009 at 12:20:08pm
The use of the DB37 is undoubtably questionable in this application. Plus there are better ways of doing it.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
15th May, 2009 at 12:40:22pm
On 15th May, 2009 Paul S said:
I always buy the pre-made loom, that has been assembled by machine. Even assembled by machine (presumably crimped ???) the correct size wires are simply too large to fit in the teminal ends so I don't know what bodge they do to get around it... plus, as Jean says, with Extra/Siamese, the configuration is different anyway. Anyway, back to business.... I haven't got the external trigger to work yet so I've just put the cam pulse on the A channel (red) and we're only looking at one port's injector. I've left the timebase fixed so you see more and more cam pulses as RPM rise. REMEMBER, the pulse is DOWNWARDS on the display. 3000 RPM 
6000 RPM 
7000 RPM 
All as expected (I think) until 8000 RPM 
The pulses merge but change in length every other (2X) RPM..... Pulse end point looks the same, start point differs. Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
15th May, 2009 at 12:50:02pm
Right, I've just tried 6000 RPM and applied a bit of boost (syringe on the MAP sensor) and exactly the same - the transition as the pulses merge is really wierd but I can't capture moving images (yet....) Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
15th May, 2009 at 12:51:50pm
Whoops Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
15th May, 2009 at 01:09:15pm
caught it just as it was changing to alternate short/long
Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
15th May, 2009 at 01:18:35pm
For Jean - I'm just scoping off the INJ tags on the JimStim, would it be worth adding some dummy load resistors.
Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
15th May, 2009 at 01:22:18pm
Rod,
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
15th May, 2009 at 01:32:14pm
Nice idea...... You did have the rev limiter set at 6K but on spark retard.
Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
15th May, 2009 at 01:35:34pm
Of course I may destroy your engine at 10K RPM !!!
Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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Forum Mod 10980 Posts Member #: 17 ***16*** SouthPark, Colorado |
15th May, 2009 at 01:39:56pm
Didn't we see this same randomness at the merging point with the MEMS mpi data?
On 17th Nov, 2014 Tom Fenton said:
Sorry to say My Herpes are no better Ready to feel Ancient ??? This is 26 years old as of 2022 https://youtu.be/YQQokcoOzeY |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
15th May, 2009 at 01:39:56pm
So, to summarise,
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
15th May, 2009 at 01:46:24pm
Rod,
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
15th May, 2009 at 01:48:15pm
Just to complete the picture,
Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
15th May, 2009 at 01:53:11pm
On 15th May, 2009 Paul S said:
Rod, Before you do any more can you disable the injection timing table and put in a fixed value. We will then see what it's doing with the timing as the pulses merge. At the moment the mid pulse timing is moving, but that should be with the table. Any specific values - as I'd rather mess with your msq rather than try and reload one of mine and get even more confused...... Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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