Individually mappable and sequential injection?
Turbo Mini Forums

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

was it that bad? better than filing a needle and guessing at it

Double post for me too but re-written...

Wet manifold is just an electronic SU, is it not ???

Although it is proven, it still allows charge stealing because of the differences in flowrate/densities of air/fuel (especially because the fuel is injected so far away from the valves) so there is still a mixture imbalance between inner and outer cylinders ??? (or am I wrong again) ?

Edited by Rod S on 30th Dec, 2007.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

The SU is a great carburettor but the difference in AFR between inner and outer cylinders is as much as 2 points at cruise, maybe more on boost - we just don't know.

Multi squirt single point type injection would be simpler to set up than the SU, but is it worth the cost?

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Hi,
I've not got to step in with my whistle have I? lol
Cheers,
Gavin :)

VEMs Authorised Installer / Re-seller. K head kits now available!

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My Mini build diary

Back on topic please, BOTH of you...
I would prefer wet manifold Megasquirt to an SU because (a) it is probably cheaper with current ebay prices if I'm starting from nothing on the induction side and (b) I prefer to play with a laptop than file needles !!!

BUT.... BUT, my original post was whether the proposed individually mappable sequential solution from Megasquirt will (if it ever happens) allow a sensible solution to 5 port without all the (as yet) untried possibilities of siamese port code.

I think the answer is no-one knows yet and there is some strong division between Megasquirt and VEMS "camps" for what can be achieved currently.

I am in the lucky position that I can wait 6 months but, if I were to trust the Megasquirt route (either siamese code or the potential of router/sequencer for individually timed injection) I would like to buy the basic MS in kit form now as it's too cold to work in my garage on the big mechnical bits at the moment !!!

Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

If that's the case then, be sure to get the MS2 processor and two ignition drivers in the kit.

You will need to configure it for VR sensor input.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

On 30th of Dec, 2007 at 03:10pm Sprocket said:

On 30th of Dec, 2007 at 02:50pm Paul S said:

On 30th of Dec, 2007 at 02:27pm Sprocket said:
FFS, no one is trodding on any ones feet, if anyones got any problem with any thing its you Paul, hanging on to what ever issue you have with the world. Lighten up, yin and yang and all that, get over it.

Another Point 2:0.

PMSL. you need to seek help

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Yes, the Siamesed Port code is based on the MS2/extra code and uses direct VR sensor input so that it knows the crank angle.

The two injector drivers then connect directly to an EDIS type coil pack.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

You are both intelligent guys so lets agree to disagree on this one please chaps?

On 30th of Dec, 2007 at 05:02pm Paul S said:

On 30th of Dec, 2007 at 03:10pm Sprocket said:

On 30th of Dec, 2007 at 02:50pm Paul S said:

On 30th of Dec, 2007 at 02:27pm Sprocket said:
FFS, no one is trodding on any ones feet, if anyones got any problem with any thing its you Paul, hanging on to what ever issue you have with the world. Lighten up, yin and yang and all that, get over it.

Another Point 2:0.

PMSL. you need to seek help

That's me trying to lighten up

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Hi,

I'm also going to install MPI on my 998. I use my own software on a Bosch Motronic hardware. The ignition has been in use for several monthes now, the injection code is almost finished, I'll test it on the engine in 1-2 weeks.

For the moment I won't have any per cylinder correction as I don't have phase (cam) sensor. I'll see how all that works in january. If I get too much richness difference I'll do a phase sensor with an old ignition distributor.

However what I'm sure of is that intake pressure is often lower (by 1kPa) for inner cylinders, my LCD displays per-cylinder pressure values. I have an SW5 cam.

std 998 A+, g295, MD266, RHF4, 109hp @0.8bar/5400rpm

I wouldn't count on the router/sequencer to have what will be needed here. However, the siamese port code has been tested on the bench and it does what it needs to do to have basic port injection on the 5-port engine.

The question remains if that basic port injection is enough to get good results. If not, then it's just a question of starting to add features until we get what we need. If Rover was able to have an acceptable solution there's no reason we can't. Also, there is another ECU that implements basically the same thing I have and it seems to run fine.

But if we need to, we can add a cam sensor, have per-cylinder injection timing, per-cylinder fuel trim, per-cylinder ignition timing trim. With those it is certain that there is a way to get the perfect tune. How much work would be needed for this and how much gain you'd have over the basic setup would have to seen. It might not be needed but if it is, it can be done.

So I don't think there is a big risk in buying an MS2 and a v3 board. I'm pretty sure you'll get a functional system that will be at least as good as what's available elsewhere now.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Just a simple question.
How much extra rolling road time will be needed to set up the new code (over and above a normal mapping session) and will it be possible to do a DIY set up?
Regards
Dave

Too early to tell at the moment Dave.

the Ms2/extra software has closed loop fuel control from a wideband lambda, so in normal circumstances, no need for a rolling road to set up the fueling.

But, and it is a big "but", each configuration may need the injection timing and advance tweaking to suit.

I'm going to use thermocouples to measure EGT but we do not yet know if that will work.

Stay tuned.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Hi,
I'm not knocking anyone here, I'm hoping that the code works for everyone who's put their time and effort into this project.
I admire the thinking and engineering going into this.
But what Dave says about the extra time spent setting all this up is a concern, as I think it will be a different "timing map" for each cam profile, maybe even for head mods too.
This could mean everyone having to go NA then turbo until a database is built up.
I'll be honest and say I'm taking the easy (cheaper/quicker?) way out and going TBi, despite having a full MPi setup sitting in the engine bay.
I'm hoping to get away with it as I'm only going to run low boost.
Tuned in and watching :)
Cheers,
Gavin :)

VEMs Authorised Installer / Re-seller. K head kits now available!

WB/EGT gauges. Click here for customers write-up

Visit www.doyouneedabrain.co.uk

My Mini build diary

OK, thanks for all the input but to try and close my original question down, can I just ask one last thing of Jean (Please!).
You said

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

It can all be very confusing at first, so don't worry. The biggest problem with the code development for siamese port is lack of testers. Not just people who want to run the code, but people who are able to debug problems on their vehicles to feed back into the development. There are not that many people with the engineering knowledge AND spare time in order to do this, so progress going from code to working solution is slow. It's the drawback of cooperative development.

What also doesn't help is that, until there is a body of evidence from various cars in various states of tune, then we won't know exactly what the eastiest/best solution is. But given time all will sort itself out.

Will you need the MS sequencer to get the best from your A-series? I doubt it. I am sure code will eventually be developed for it, but that will be some way off (at least 18 months) and there is a LOT of mileage in the MS2 solution yet.

It is not for the faint hearted at the moment and SPI remains the proven, if suboptimal solution for the A-series. But I am confident, now that Paul is pretty much ready to roll that things will start to move forwards in leaps and bounds. (no pressure Paul :) ) 2008 will be a year in which many good things will happen on A-series injection.

Bill

http://www.jbperf.com/

Jean (and everyone else who joined in), thank you all for raising my understanding - there's nothing like spending days with the search button (not only on this forum, but MegaSquirt/VENS forums and a few more obscure ones) and getting totally confused, compared to asking what I thought was a simple question and getting some very interesting and technical responses.
I apologise for starting a mini WW3 in the middle.... but thanks anyway and, as I said earlier,

Happy New Year to you all (whatever your chosen EMS may be...)

Rod. (off down the pub shortly...).

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???