| Page: |
| Home > A-Series EFI / Injection > Who's actually got this running on a 5 port??? | |||||||
|
Site Admin  9403 Posts Member #: 58 455bhp per ton 12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini Sunny Bridgend, South Wales |
12th Sep, 2012 at 11:49:42am
what kind of EGT temps are you guys seeing? I've not got sensors mounted but using an infrared thermometer my centre exhaust port is 512 deg c at idle Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing
On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:
I think the welsh one has it right! 1st to provide running proof of turbo twinkie in a car and first to run a 1/4 in one!! Is your data backed up?? directbackup.net one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials |
||||||
 8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
12th Sep, 2012 at 12:16:06pm
I logged around 700 Deg C on the centre branch on a low compression, low revving 998.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
|
||||||
|
89 Posts Member #: 2380 Advanced Member Hamburg, Germany |
12th Sep, 2012 at 12:22:14pm
thats why professional grade equipment measure the pressure now, too.
On 12th Sep, 2012 Rod S said:
So if the datasheet is correct (ish), of course you can calculate the actual AFRs but only if you measure the actual pressures at the LSU. |
||||||
 5329 Posts Member #: 140 Proven 200+bhp & Avon Park 05,06,07 Class D 3rd place |
12th Sep, 2012 at 09:38:25pm
IMO Jim for the set up for the race car your taking about, I don't think you'll gain any thing over a well set up carb. Best 1/4 mile 13.2 seconds @116 mph
|
||||||
|
8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
13th Sep, 2012 at 08:28:02am
Fueling issues aside, the biggest impact on power will be any change of inlet runner length and diameter.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
|
||||||
|
Site Admin 9403 Posts Member #: 58 455bhp per ton 12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini Sunny Bridgend, South Wales |
13th Sep, 2012 at 10:01:04am
thanks for all the input guys, if I could get the carb to fuel perfectly all the way through the rev range then I would keep it, but currently it's a compromise Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing
On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:
I think the welsh one has it right! 1st to provide running proof of turbo twinkie in a car and first to run a 1/4 in one!! Is your data backed up?? directbackup.net one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials |
||||||
 11046 Posts Member #: 965 Post Whore Preston On The Brook |
13th Sep, 2012 at 12:05:59pm
On 13th Sep, 2012 Jimster said:
thanks for all the input guys, if I could get the carb to fuel perfectly all the way through the rev range then I would keep it, but currently it's a compromise Remember what Dave Wlker was talking about with a Weber and lower RPM on a wild cam  and how EFI totally transformed it. Nothing to stop you using a Jenvey on the same Weber manifold with a pair of smaller injectors sized for the duty, fired in batch mode.
Also, remind me. I know there has been testing with a carb that shows cylinder AFR imbalance, and testing with the siamease code to show that it fundamentally works, but has there been testing with the SPi manifold or a custom double barrel to show that is any worse than a carb? Its been so long since all this started and I don't remember. On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be... So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'... On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........ |
||||||
 1346 Posts Member #: 2340 Post Whore Dublin Ireland |
13th Sep, 2012 at 12:48:31pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzU9QBAr1kc...player_embedded
On 17th Feb, 2009 Rob H said:
I find the easiest way is to super glue the bolt to the end of one of my fingers. ______________________________________________________ |
||||||
|
Site Admin 9403 Posts Member #: 58 455bhp per ton 12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini Sunny Bridgend, South Wales |
13th Sep, 2012 at 01:15:59pm
pretty much thats what I need. Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing
On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:
I think the welsh one has it right! 1st to provide running proof of turbo twinkie in a car and first to run a 1/4 in one!! Is your data backed up?? directbackup.net one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials |
||||||
 2054 Posts Member #: 452 Post Whore Chester, UK |
13th Sep, 2012 at 01:59:17pm
why do they open the throttle so slow in that video? btw i have no sound just looks weird... |
||||||
|
1267 Posts Member #: 831 Post Whore Montreal, Canada |
13th Sep, 2012 at 02:00:46pm
Power and torque might be good but that video also shows that fuel distribution is not good when you see even EGTs on all three ports (even though they claim it's a good thing).
|
||||||
|
4018 Posts Member #: 1757 Back to Fucking Tool status Swindon |
13th Sep, 2012 at 02:44:07pm
Ever thought about using twin hif44's instead of the webber? Suposidly when tuned properly it gives alot better driveablity but keeps about the same for power, you could also still use good sized trumpets and mod the butterfly and carb body for better flow Drives
|
||||||
|
8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
13th Sep, 2012 at 03:43:09pm
On 13th Sep, 2012 jbelanger said:
Power and torque might be good but that video also shows that fuel distribution is not good when you see even EGTs on all three ports (even though they claim it's a good thing). How bad it actually is and what the consequences will be, I don't know. But there is definitely room for improvement. Jean I don't know about the consequences but I've logged lots of EGT and AFR data. The only time that the EGTs were the same was when the AFRs were 4 points apart. i.e. 15:1 on the outers and 11:1 on the inners. Turd polishing IMO. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
|
||||||
|
Site Admin 9403 Posts Member #: 58 455bhp per ton 12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini Sunny Bridgend, South Wales |
13th Sep, 2012 at 03:45:46pm
I will not be logging egt's on this engine, only AFR's.
Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing
On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:
I think the welsh one has it right! 1st to provide running proof of turbo twinkie in a car and first to run a 1/4 in one!! Is your data backed up?? directbackup.net one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials |
||||||
 (2)[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/150672766@N03/]Rod Sugden[/url], on Fli) 5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
13th Sep, 2012 at 04:54:14pm
On 13th Sep, 2012 Sprocket said:
Also, remind me. I know there has been testing with a carb that shows cylinder AFR imbalance, and testing with the siamease code to show that it fundamentally works, but has there been testing with the SPi manifold or a custom double barrel to show that is any worse than a carb? Its been so long since all this started and I don't remember. Colin, I wish someone would. Maybe someone has, but I've seen nothing on this forum. And it's so easy on a N/A setup. On 13th Sep, 2012 jbelanger said:
Power and torque might be good but that video also shows that fuel distribution is not good when you see even EGTs on all three ports (even though they claim it's a good thing). I looked that video up again yesterday (mainly to see what their peak EGTs were as Jimster asked) but it only shows the part throttle readings. If you go back to the rather "fraught" thread originally on the SC setup, JK did say that his initial statement of EGRs being close was at part throttle and they were about 120 apart under load (which matches Paul/myself). Unfortunately, like the AFRs, there isn't any real data at load (apart from torque/power). On 13th Sep, 2012 Jimster said:
I will not be logging egt's on this engine, only AFR's. Jim, I genuinely look forward to the results. It won't put the turbo arguement to bed but will go a long way towards showing whether a wet manifold injection (with discrete pulses) can match a carb (continuous flow). Any chance you will fit the two widebands before you take the weber off and give us some direct comparison ??? Rod. Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
||||||
|
5329 Posts Member #: 140 Proven 200+bhp & Avon Park 05,06,07 Class D 3rd place |
13th Sep, 2012 at 05:02:10pm
Jim I can't see why you can't get suitable mixtures, you just need to get it to a good rolling road guy, get to T&M in colchester Best 1/4 mile 13.2 seconds @116 mph
|
||||||
|
8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
14th Sep, 2012 at 08:56:51am
Haha - 3 way tug of war.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
|
||||||
|
Site Admin 9403 Posts Member #: 58 455bhp per ton 12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini Sunny Bridgend, South Wales |
14th Sep, 2012 at 09:39:32am
I want to put the carb to bed, so want to try EFI, if I gain nothing I'll put it back on, but at least I know I've tried it. I will try dual wide bands before I remove the carb.
Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing
On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:
I think the welsh one has it right! 1st to provide running proof of turbo twinkie in a car and first to run a 1/4 in one!! Is your data backed up?? directbackup.net one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials |
||||||
|
8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
14th Sep, 2012 at 10:29:37am
The Jenvey twin TB on the existing manifold would be a great solution but you would run into problems with batch injection.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
|
||||||
|
5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
14th Sep, 2012 at 10:29:41am
On 14th Sep, 2012 Jimster said:
..... I will try dual wide bands before I remove the carb. Good On 14th Sep, 2012 Jimster said:
I What I can’t understand is why I can’t got for a jenvey style twin TB to bolt on to the existing inlet manifold (rather than use a single TB like the video above). My thought is as long as the injectors are as close to the butterfly as possible then it should still work as good as a carb?? What are your thoughts on this??? A bit tricky to explain but here goes..... To best replicate a carb (continuous mixing of air/fuel) an injection system needs to fire a minimum of 4 pulses per engine cycle with a high enough duty cycle (amount of time injector(s) are open compared to closed) to best mix the fuel/air. But more importantly it needs to be done where the airflow is reasonably constant (for the given engine load). The SC kit in the video probably uses two injectors (right next to each other) just for capacity though if JK reads this I'm sure he can clarify. A weber setup, or twin throttle bodies feeding the two inlet ports independantly, will not have a continuous flow of air down each one, they will only flow air for half the engine cycle. EDIT - depending whether the manifold has a balance pipe or not, but even if it does, the air flow will still pulse as the balance pipe won't flow the same as the main runner - END edit So, for a start, you would need an ECU that runs sequential to match the alternating airflows and would need an injection regime that tried to add fuel to moving air. Otherwise you could be injecting into stagnant air which not only would be minimal mixing, but could pool fuel in the runner, or adhere to the walls, just to be sucked into the first valve that opens (inner) which is basically the fundamental siamese port issue. 7/8 ports don't care if you pool the fuel in the runner or stick it to the walls (apart from things like acceleration enrichment but that's stil an equal problem on all cylinders), ultimately it will all go in the correct cylinder when the inlet valve(s) for that cylinder open. So in summary, if you tried two throttle bodies, you really have a form of port injection (but with injection a long way from the ports) and all the problems that go with it. The only realistic way you can run a "wet manifold" system and try to make an "electronic carb" is to replicate a single carb on a combined manifold. Hope that makes sense. Edited by Rod S on 14th Sep, 2012. Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
||||||
 16540 Posts Member #: 4241 King Gaycharger, butt plug dealer, Sheldon Cooper and a BAC but generally a niceish fella if you dont mind a northerner Rotherham, South Yorkshire |
14th Sep, 2012 at 10:52:53am
I was initially concerned about the direction of this thread, but its turned round nicely. Im actually understanding more of the problem and the reasons the different options are less than ideal. Keep it up On 11th Feb, 2015 robert said:
i tried putting soap on it , and heating it to brown , then slathered my new lube on it 
|
||||||
 55 Posts Member #: 10097 Advanced Member Bristol |
14th Sep, 2012 at 10:59:34am
knowledge dropped. interesting read so far this, i'll be persuing something similar in the future so i'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with, Jim. |
||||||
|
Site Admin 9403 Posts Member #: 58 455bhp per ton 12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini Sunny Bridgend, South Wales |
14th Sep, 2012 at 11:21:31am
thanks guys, some good info. I think I'll go with the single TB, I'll do back to back tests on the dyno too. I'll keep you posted on how I get on.
Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing
On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:
I think the welsh one has it right! 1st to provide running proof of turbo twinkie in a car and first to run a 1/4 in one!! Is your data backed up?? directbackup.net one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials |
||||||
|
4018 Posts Member #: 1757 Back to Fucking Tool status Swindon |
14th Sep, 2012 at 11:37:08am
What about a modified head abit like carls twini with injectors pointing at each port, keep the standard port with i jectors coming from the top if that makes sence? Have them crossed so they fire to the opposit side for space? Surely then you wouldnt need siamease inj and use standard style setup?
Drives
|
||||||
|
Forum Mod 10980 Posts Member #: 17 ***16*** SouthPark, Colorado |
14th Sep, 2012 at 11:58:21am
Jim has fully sequential available to him, and the Emerald system that he already owns has an injector advance table. He doesn't have to pass the MOT, and the engine needs to make the beans between 6000 and 9000 rpm, and have better throttle response and pickup than the carb. Basically - his target is outright power in a somewhat limited powerband (albeit one with a tiny injection window)
On 17th Nov, 2014 Tom Fenton said:
Sorry to say My Herpes are no better Ready to feel Ancient ??? This is 26 years old as of 2022 https://youtu.be/YQQokcoOzeY |
||||||
| Home > A-Series EFI / Injection > Who's actually got this running on a 5 port??? | |||||||
|
|||||||
| Page: |