Microsquirt V3 usage
Turbo Mini Forums

Hello all
i am new here to turbo minis and have searched and searched regarding the microsquirt module.
there is only 3 post regarding this with very limited info and most are very old posts too.

Can the microsquirt v3 ecu do sequencial injection with staging.

i have done injection using canems semi sequencial ecu and did actually get to 7500 rpm with even AFRs on NA engine. (Have logs too from that).


i don't see why one couldn't use the microsquirt for sequencial injection on 5 port mini.
could anyone shed some light on it. or point me in the right direction.

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none

Edited by Rod S on 7th Aug, 2014.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

You mention the Microsquirt V3 and you also mention the Microsquirt module. I don't know if you're aware of this but these are 2 different products with different purpose and slightly different possibilities.

You should look at the MS documentation to see all the differences: http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/whatmegasquirt.html. But basically, the Microsquirt is a cased unit with no provision for modifications while the Microsquirt module is an ECU module intended to be used on a custom board.

And the Microsquirt has 2 injector outputs and you can't change that. The Microsquirt module has 2 injector drivers on the module and also has 2 outputs that can be used as injector outputs if you add the needed external drivers (on the custom board). I have made such a custom board that uses the module and add many features and fits inside a completely weather and waterproof case.

So to do sequential and staged injection you either use a modified MS2 as Rod mentioned or some other custom board based on the Microsquirt module.

Jean

Edited by jbelanger on 7th Aug, 2014.

http://www.jbperf.com/

thank you all for quick reply,

yes i did mention both the megasquirt cased unit and the module.
As i got confused and seen that the module has a possiblility to drive 4 injection drivers using additional circuits.
does it not mean that one could open the case and do the same mod on the cased unit??

To recap. then
the micorsquirt cased out of the box unit can:
1. run sequential injection on 5 port but no staging?
or
2. run semisequencial with staging?

Thank you again.

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none

The module is not the same board as the cased version of the Microsquirt; the module has additional pads that give access to more CPU pins and doesn't connect multiple pins to the same output (look at the schematics). The cased version cannot have more than 2 injector channels even if you open the case. You would need to make destructive modifications to the board (i.e. cut traces and/or CPU pins) and solder directly to the CPU pins to achieve this.

But yes, you can run either sequential injection without staging or staged semi-sequential.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Thank you Jean for clearing that up for me.
you said you have a board + case solution for the microsquirt module?
any pics or a link to were one could see such a marvel.

Sascha

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none

Here you go: http://forum.jbperf.com/viewtopic.php?f=14...&start=20#p3693

http://www.jbperf.com/

Thank you again Jean,
but i'd say this is a bit costly for what i had in mind.
Eventhough you have made an excellent piece of kit there is it still at the 600 mark?

at what stage of power is staged injection required.
I got to about 96 HP with the semisequencial injection without staging. 630 cc injectors at the time NA
so i wonder on a 5 port turbo were the limit is.
So i could still use the microsquirt on a turbo with say 150 hp.
and full sequential injection.
problem here is at the moment information overload and a lot of rubbish on the internet these days too.

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none

Thank you again Jean,
but i'd say this is a bit costly for what i had in mind.
Eventhough you have made an excellent piece of kit there is it still at the 600 mark?

at what stage of power is staged injection required.
I got to about 96 HP with the semisequencial injection without staging. 630 cc injectors at the time NA
so i wonder on a 5 port turbo were the limit is.
So i could still use the microsquirt on a turbo with say 150 hp.
and full sequential injection.
problem here is at the moment information overload and a lot of rubbish on the internet these days too.

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none

Thank you again Jean,
but i'd say this is a bit costly for what i had in mind.
Eventhough you have made an excellent piece of kit there is it still at the 600 mark?

at what stage of power is staged injection required.
I got to about 96 HP with the semisequencial injection without staging. 630 cc injectors at the time NA
so i wonder on a 5 port turbo were the limit is.
So i could still use the microsquirt on a turbo with say 150 hp.
and full sequential injection.
problem here is at the moment information overload and a lot of rubbish on the internet these days too.

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none

hmm whats going on with the website here?
click once and 3 posts lol

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none

hmm whats going on with the website here?
click once and 3 posts lol

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none

hmm whats going on with the website here?
click once and 3 posts lol

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none

hmm whats going on with the website here?
click once and 3 posts lol

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none

The multiple posts seem common when people post from a phone or other mobile device.

Edited by Rod S on 10th Aug, 2014.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Ok Thank you again,

right then, is there a semi sequential mix with sequential version.
Let me explain what i mean.
1 pulse per revolution, which would hit one open valve and on next rotation 1 closed valve. and so on.
However dependent on which cylinder it is have a fuel trim to account fro different Ve.

i hope i explained that ok.

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none

Edited by Rod S on 11th Aug, 2014.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

The semi-sequential code is done such that it doesn't use the cam signal whether or not it is there. Since that also means the MS doesn't know which injector channel correspond to the open and closed valve, there is no trim for open and closed valve but only for channel 1 and 2 (I think, it's been a loooong time and haven't gone back to check).

The only way to trim the fuel per cylinder is full sequential and if you need staging, you also need 4 injector channels. Which would eliminate the cased Microsquirt.

I also would like to add that one of the issue with pricing is that B&G price their cased Microsquirt very aggressively but the module is almost the same price without a case and connector. And look at DIYAutotune Microsquirt module-based ECUs (who have the volume to get the lowest possible prices) and you'll be able to better compare with mine.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Hi Jean,
i think you have made a fabulous piece of kit there. And i do understand that there are by far more features using your system. Is it still about 600$?

the only problem i see with using semi sequencial using the ms code is that there isn't enough resolution in the table for the injection timing.

When i tuned my setup with canems they had a table of 14(Load) * 18 (Speed).
And i did require that to compensate for pulse reversion / air speed change vs load and speed.
i will try and post a pic of both the injection timing and a log with AFR's
as i do think it is possible with semi sequential.

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none

There's a build thread over at irishminis from my mini.
http://www.irishminis.ie/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9044

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none

I don't disagree that semi-sequential can work in principle but the basic history with the MS2/uS is it was tried by Paul with little success and then Jean added the cam signal for us so we didn't persue it any more.

The point is, for the short time it was tried, it was never tried in staged mode.

I had a quick look this afternoon and thought it might be possible but after Jean reminding me how the trim works (and it has been a looong time) I also have my doubts.

Presumably Canems (I only know the principal behind it, never used it) also only has two chanel drivers hence why you can't use it in a staged format (if you could, presumably you wouldn't be here )

I'll put the scope on my spare setup tommorow and see how it responds to staged but I now think the trim is, as Jean says, going to be between the staged output and the primary output, not the cylinders.

EDIT - I don't think table resolution for the injection timing is relevant between the two ECUs, well not in fully sequential mode anyway, MS2/uS interpolate between the cells and the velocity of fuel/air down the runners is a fairly straightforward relationship to speed (RPM) and density (load) especially on a turbo engine.

If you have a uS or an MS2 set it up on a JimStim and try the permutations. That's all I've done to look at your question. I just don't have my scope connected at the moment.

Edited by Rod S on 11th Aug, 2014.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

If by semi-sequential you mean that you inject once per rev and that you don't have a cam signal then you can't compensate for the different VE between the inner and outer cylinders because you don't know which channel is injecting for the inner and which for the outer.

If you mean that you have a cam signal but still inject once per rev then you could in theory inject a different pulse width per channel according on whether it's for the inner or the outer.

Staging will have no effect on this.

And if you have a cam signal, you would be able to duplicate this pseudo-semi-sequential (2nd one above) with the full sequential siamese code by using 2 timing values and adding 180 degrees to the second one. That would likely not be the most efficient timing but it could be done. But it would still not really be semi-sequential because you'd be using phase information.

And yes that is still $600 but since I moved recently, I would need to check some of my unpacked boxes to make sure that I still have one available (actually all the components to assemble one because they are assembled on a per order basis).

http://www.jbperf.com/

Here's the pic of canems.


The Throttle didn't open more than 80% as it was shown on the dyno that a reduction in power was the case. jenvey 45 dcoe throttles which where way too big for this project. anyways it goes to show that it does work however it took a lot of time to get it to that tune. This is a setup without a cam sensor.

Jean, regarding my question earlier i was curious about injection with cam sensor in seami style mode. this would mean that one could still use smaller injectors ?
or am i just going in circles here.

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none

The injector size and pulse width will remain about the same whether you are running semi-sequential or sequential. In both cases, each channel will fire twice per cycle. In the case of semi-sequential, each injector will fire once per rev without knowing which cylinder is being fueled while in sequential, each injector is being fired twice but with the timing and fueling set for the cylinder being fueled.

There is another sequential mode where each injector is fired only once per cycle during the intake overlap period. In this case the injector channels are fired 360 degrees apart. And the pulse width will basically be doubled so again you don't have an impact on injector size. There is a small impact on duty cycle due to having one less open-close cycle.

The only thing that has a significant impact on the needed injector size is the number of injectors used. Other than that, you are limited by the open valve injection window of the outer cylinders.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

All Angles covered there then.
is there any way of getting more resolution in the injection angle table in ms.
as i found that even 2 degrees out at wot has a huge impact on the balance. maybe the injectors that i was using were just on the limit.
Am glad i joined this site as i was kind of on my own in Ireland doing this publicly.
have gotten more info here in the few post then in searching the web over the past years. i must be searching for the wrong contents or google ireland is just not displaying the things i want.

Mini => Money Is Not Important
or more like if you get the mini speed virus you'll have none