Show of Hands, How Many People Actualy Want Siamese Injection Code
Turbo Mini Forums

Cast your vote after reading this

Looking to gauge interest on the siamese Injection code problem.

I will post the link for this poll on the VEMS Wiki along with the relevant information, so creative, not negative comments are welcome (we know about the negatives so lets not dwell on it)

How many people are serious about using it.

Reason Im asking is that there needs to be a fair demand otherwise we will still be where we are next year??

Not that Im tryng a shift from Megasquirt, or the hard work Jean has done, the problem is that the Megasquirt hardware is limited.

Just need a show of hands to perswade the powers that be, that there is a need, thus gaining certain developer rights.

The result could be Dual active fuel tables with each PID loop linked to a wide band Lambda, one in each pairs of cylinders 1/4 2/3, two + two (four + four if you really wished) staged sequential fire injectors, dual EGT probes again one in each pair of cylinders, direct fire DIS (no EDIS required)maybe sequential ignition dependant on ignition hardware, stepper motor idle control, knock detection, Advanced ALS, Launch control, Soft and Hard cut rev limiters, mapped boost control, several outputs for relays/ shift lights/ fans/ water pumps, extra analogue inputs for monitoring only, and, saurated or Peak and Hold injectors.





Nothing has been done to get this to work as of yet but the hardware is there.

Cast your vote, please leave a comment as to the reason for your vote.

Thank you

sprox

Those who would use Siamese code on Megasquirt	11 Votes - 0%
Those who would use Siamese code on VEMS	6 Votes - 0%
Those who would use siamese code on which ever	8 Votes - 0%

I've vot for the Vems. I will be soon using it for a SPI, but we don't know the way the emissions restrictions will take, and the price for gas too. For a better emission control, which mean powerful ignition and no-more-than-needed fuel, I thinks a 2+2 injectors is the way to go with our turbo/superchaged Minis. Two injector for low bost/idling, and two other for on boost/high power demand.


Thierry

Mini British Open II 1275 SPI Full Stock
working on SSpi project

Sprox,

I'm investing a lot of time and money in getting the MS siamesed port code running in my car, but like most people have limited time and it's taking longer than expected.

Given that by the time that a VEMS system has been developed, the MS hardware will have overtaken VEMS, I'm going to stick with MS.

The MS development is going at quite a pace and soon it will be possible to use MS to do all the above, with the added benefit that it will be open source.

I don't think that VEMS will be any cheaper in the long term. Plus I dont like dealing with people that have taken an open source product, packaged it as their own and profit from it.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

What's this injection thingy you're always talking about?

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

I've got another issue with getting VEMS involved.

A lot of the discussion concerning the method to fuel inject a siamesed port engine has been held on this forum. This has developed the work done by Marcel Chichak into a method of accurately fueling a 200hp turbo A series, although untested at the moment.

A lot of TM members have contributed to the discussion and certain individuals have spent a lot of time writing code and testing.

This work has all been made open source, because the intention is to share the solution with no one member making a personal gain.

I'm would not be happy if the work done to-date was taken by a commercial concern and developed into a product that we would have to pay for.

Rant over.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

ms for me

AlexF

Not bothered either way but would go with cheapest option presently i am saving for M3D due to plug and play goodness.

But if you think we can run this cheaply and well and it will run my SC then i would be in for it

TurboDave said

"Fab's right of course.

Maybe you should take your styling ideas off the French instead! "

I'm sticking with MS - but the MS3 will possibly be a make or break point on the long-term future of the megasquirt option.

Alex, im not after an argument. Nobody is steeling anything. Its your choice and you made it, I respect that

In what way will MS overtake development of VEMS when VEMS offers so much more already and MS is catching up? not sure what you mean. If its going to be such a radical change then i suspect the MS boards and its packaging wil be so different, you wont be able to upgrade older boards so you would have to buy another one anyway, so not so cheep in the long run??

As for open source, what do you mean by this? It comes across to me that you think VEMS puts a price on software, this is not so. There are VEMS developers out there, you can apply to become a developer and gain rights to those areas of the code tree that is required 'open source'. You dont need to change things such as the wideband code (one reason VEMS is locked code). Firmware for both megasqirt and VEMS is freeware, you can download it and use it if you own the relevant board (copyright exists in both MS and VEMS), why else would you want it if you didnt have a board?

Dev, in what way is M3D plug and Play and VEMS is not. You still have to rewire the connectors, though it does use the same connectors, there is only 1 but the MPi has two, it still needs rewiring. So VEMS is just as plug and play. What you do get with M3D is user friendly software and one on one information back up, with a rolling road set up into the bargin, that is what sets M3D appart from many others and why peolpe use it.

AlexF

Hi,
Think he meant Axel?
Cheers,
Gavin :)

VEMs Authorised Installer / Re-seller. K head kits now available!

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Visit www.doyouneedabrain.co.uk

My Mini build diary

Well, I'm not getting into a lengthy discussion on this.

I've said what I think.

I just do not think that getting VEMS involved is a good idea. We have the code, we just need to prove it.

It seems that the prime motive for using VEMS is saving money. Well I'm more interested in a working system at the moment. Doing everything in parallel with MS and VEMS will not help.

Getting a working ECU is just the start though. The inlet manifold is the next big challenge.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Well ok I have the information I wanted. Though there have been 194 views and only 14 votes, it does mean that the demand for this is surprisingly low. There are a few others on the Megasquirt forums, but doubt there is enough demand for anyone other than ourselves to spend the time developing it

14 people want Siamese port injection.

4 people are hardcore Megasquirt users/ prospective users

3 People are hardcore VEMS users/ prospective users

and 7 people just want the problem solving. Thats an attitude i like!!



This is how I see the problem. Megasquirt has the code but not the hardware, VEMS has the hardware but not the code. The MS code will not work on VEMS and the VEMS code will not work on MS. So as it goes its an equal playing field. Price has nothing to do with it.

I have my own ideas on how to implement the solution, and from my indepth reading it is not what has been released for Megasquirt, far from it.

If you dont want to get involved with VEMS, Axel, then thats, fine. When did I ask for help or information to get coding for VEMS working

Oh and to put one thing to bed, VEMS is a completely unique system sharing the Megatune platform. Megasquirt uses a primative Motorola processor the VEMS uses an Atmel AVR 128 processor. VERY different.

http://megasquirtavr.sourceforge.net/

And Vegard might be interested to know the Norwegian connection to VEMS though i doubt he will apreciate it being a carbie man http://www.avrtv.com/2007/09/09/avrtv-special-005/

Thank you all for your participation. I shall not bring this up again, for those who want to know, you know where to find it.

I don't want to get into the debate of VEMS vs MS but I'm more interested in seeing a solution to the siamese port injection. No matter what the final solution is, there is still quite a bit of work to be done on the ECU side but also on the intake side, as axel mentioned, and on the cam specs.

I don't believe that there will be a unique solution for these because of different needs but the first real implementation will likely pave the way for the rest.

In any case, I'll be glad to see a working system with whatever hardware being used. Mini Sprocket, I'm curious to know what is different in your idea for a solution that would differ significantly from what I've done. I've been looking at this subject for a number of years and I think I have a pretty good grasp of what the issues are so if you want to discuss what you intend to do I might have ideas or I might be enlightened for my own code.

Having said that, I'm not surprised at the low number of intended users. This is still unproven and will become more interesting for most when there is some baseline configuration that people can start from. The closer a solution can become to plug and play the more people will want to try it. But that stage may never be reached.

Cheers,
Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

I think that once the benefits of the fuel injection are shown, then a lot more people will show an interest.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Whilst I appreciate the VEMS system is a good system, and will admit that for any other application I'd recomend it over MS2 at the moment, I think that the MS2 with Jeans code will work well.

Yes VEMS is a good bit of kit, the built in 2 channel wideband is a great feature, I really, really struggle with the support issues ... i.e. there is much less of it.

This is such a specialist application that I don't think there will be many people outside the A and B series engine scene who will want it, and only a small percentage of those that have the skills to work it to a conclussion.

I also understand why you prefer the VEMS system, automotive grade connectors, fully water proof case ec. etc. and the fact it has loads of features the MS2 has to have externally or on special configurations but for 90% the lack of support will be the killer.

I have to say well done for getting as far as you have practically alone and that sort of ability would be great on this problem too.

The big issue I guess is that the small percentage of people I mentioned earlier are all likely to want to get a fully interactive relationship with the code generation ..... that is just the type of people they are likely to be!!! Until we can get that sort of access to the code for VEMS I think it's a lost cause. The only people who will be able to do a good job on this issue are those that really want it for their own use .... it's going to require the sort of dedication that only a genuine fanatic can generate.

Good thought though.

Every day is a school day ...........

How fast and how expensive ...... the same question...

I think for widespread interest you would need a kit of parts similar to what Mirage do with their turbo manifolds, or Vmax scart with their supercharger kits

So that would be an inlet manifold, injectors (or recommendations ), any add-on boards, throttle body etc.

Megasquirt seems powerful enough to get the job done. I've built one of these and know it reasonably well, so I guess I'm biased.

Andy

I'd be quite interested in it, as i'm planning on building a turbo car. I dont know an awful lot about it but i'm trying to learn.

I think that once a system was up and running, and proven, then you would see the real demand.

Until then, its just another internet dream ( no offence meant to those who have invested their time in the project )

Im sure the uptake on MJ users was slow initially....but once a few seen how good it can perform, now plenty are using it !

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

As one who has been around since the begging it is interesting to see what has emerged as fact/legend on the whole VEMS thing. But to put the record straight, it started as a port of MS code onto a different processor. For a while MS and VEMS shared ideas on the mailing list and everyone was happy. Then they disappeared up their own rear ends and started basically sh*tting on MS. At which point they were chucked out.

Since then very little has happened onVEMS. Several thousand MS have been installed globally. Go figure.

It should also be remembered that MS is not the first B&G EFI project. Before that there was EFI332 which was full on OEM grade design. It failed, mainly due to the complexity. So with MS things are in slow steps to allow the whole community to get up to speed before moving on to the next step. THIS is the reason for its great success.

Having said all that, if you have the SMD soldering skills and are generally technical then VEMS will do the job. But I have seen no evidence that you can trust the onboard wideband further than you can throw it. And because they are a closed group there is unlikely to be any evidence.

Lets not forget that there is this fellow

http://www.canems.co.uk/

who was at MITP demoing his controller with a 998 and MPi inlet setup and a home brew dual channel wideband (not sure what it was actually displaying as you couldn't get close enough to the car to look for 2 sensors).

I have my doubts on this as although he has obviously been reading around the problem I'm not convinced he has got a grasp of some of the subtle problems that would be required for a forced induction A series.

Every day is a school day ...........

How fast and how expensive ...... the same question...

Great to see you back on the board Bill.

As we get closer to implimenting a solution you direct help and support will be invaulable.

Every day is a school day ...........

How fast and how expensive ...... the same question...