Eaton M24 Supercharger on SPI
Turbo Mini Forums

Hi.

I have for project to build a supercharged spi engine. I am not looking at extrem power, but good power and good torque.
The engine/box is a 9.4:1 cr 53hp , with something like a 2.7/2.8 final ratio
I was thinking about the M24 because it is smaller than the M45 and it
should be more efficent for max 10psi on std bore.
I have differents option to make it work.

The fist would be like a the novitec an others turbo kits for the Cinquecento Fiat, which is SPI.They lower the CR, and blow through the TBI. The "remapping" of the fuel injection were done by piggyback, an MF2 who drive an other injector. The boost was about 7/8 psi. But nothing was done for the ignition control for the kit with the MF2 (I don't know what is done by the novitech piggy/ecu)

The second option would be a suckthrough version, but I don't think about it (no charge-cooling exept with water or water/ethanol)...


So I Think I'll try the fisrt one. But what about the engine management? Adding an other injector (maybe between the s/c or intercooler and the TBI to help cooling) with an MF2 driver, But It still cause problems with ignition??
Or going with a Megasquirt/Vems unit, with a larger single injector?

If someone have any ideas about it, it would be great!

Thanks


Thierry

Mini British Open II 1275 SPI Full Stock
working on SSpi project

Mini Spocket has used Vems on his SPi to good effect. My preference would be MegaSquirt as I am still unconvinced by the support in the UK for Vems.

I think either will be a good option for you, use the one you feel most comfortable with.

Every day is a school day ...........

How fast and how expensive ...... the same question...

Bonjour,

The M24 will be a bit small for a 1275 to run 10psi boost. You are going to need to run it at a 2.6:1 speed ratio to get that boost.

Bearing in mind that the max speed of the M24 is 15,000, then you will have to limit your engine to around 5500rpm.

Also, I do not think that the M24 is very efficient, although we do not have a compressor map to prove it.

However, it will fit in front of the engine allowing you to use an intercooler.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Hi.
I don't actually know which of these two ECU I will use. The Vems looks easiest to tune and to integrate in car, but the MS seems to be more "evolutive".

I have only little informations about the M24. It support up to 2.8 speed ratio but I can't find the map too. But as I said, 10psi would be the max boost.
The aim is to build an efficent engine, with enought room left to work on it for further mods.

Thierry

Mini British Open II 1275 SPI Full Stock
working on SSpi project

I have looked at both ECU's and agree with Roger, the megasquirt does look ALOT better supported than VEMS, I was looking at the VEMS site and found the site impossible to use even with just finding prices etc, so I would't like to think what the technical help would be like on that site?

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1/4mile in 13.2sec @ 111 terminal on 15psi

I AM the technical help for Vems on the Mini

On 23rd of Sep, 2007 at 03:58pm Mini Sprocket said:
I AM the technical help for Vems on the Mini

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1/4mile in 13.2sec @ 111 terminal on 15psi

On 23rd of Sep, 2007 at 03:58pm Mini Sprocket said:
I AM the technical help for Vems on the Mini

Every day is a school day ...........

How fast and how expensive ...... the same question...

Put it this way, I have trawled through all the VEMS websites for information to get all this working for both the SPi and the 16valver since january, i built my own controller and fitted it into a non standard Case, I had to work out the hard way how to get some of the outputs to work, especialy the Bipolar stepper.

There is nothing in it once you know the settings and what to set them to between the SPi and 16 valver, it all comes down to tuning the ignition,VE maps, warm up and acceleration enrichments. The latter is a bit shit but its being looked at for the next firmware release.

Piece of piss

Edited by Sprocket on 23rd Sep, 2007.

Oh and this is the BEST place to start

http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=Mem...Bob%2FUserGuide

Edited by Sprocket on 23rd Sep, 2007.

I've just read the "best place to start" (Thanks Mini Sprocket). Vems still seems to me easier to tune than the MS unit. The lcd and keyboard could be nice,I just need to know more about there use (is it just for slight tweaks or can it be use to tune the all of the parameters?)
About the support between Vems and MS, there is no support here in France (all things that modify the caracteristic of an engines are forbidden... )
Sure there are more forum about MS than the Vems, but for my use (spi, *charged) I don't need hard support: T user guide, my knowledge, some afternoon and sunday for brainstorming (maybe some MP to Mini Sprocket )

I thinks I will go into the Vems way.
The fist step is to found the original electric schems from Rover (Haynes or other) the pattern of the flywheel an other info, build it on the paper, and plug in on the car.

But what would be the best? Make the ECU work PERFECTLY on my stock n/a engine,and go a step further after that, or dirrectly build the supercharger engine?

Thierry

Mini British Open II 1275 SPI Full Stock
working on SSpi project

Wouldnt get concerned with the keyboard, Its way too problematic, its more of a gimmick. Laptop is your friend for tuning, I wouldnt recommend any other way. There is a softwere release of tuning and data logging software for PDA's as well.

The Display is excellent though, but it does have its problems, mainly electrical noise, this is not a big issue. I am currently looking for a larger display as the one in the VEMS shop is too small when your trying to focus on one line and your bouncing around as you do in a mini. I found that you can get a display that has charcters aproximately twice the size of the VEMS one.

Any programable ECU will control the injectors and ignition. Its the goodies that go withit that sets them appart.

MPi Siamese code is currently restricted to Megasquirt. Though Polestar recon they have it sorted, but i suspect that is still a wet manifold set up untill i am told otherwise.

As for diagrams you need this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROVER-MG-GROUP-RAVE-...1QQcmdZViewItem

And have a look through this http://www.vems.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=29.0

Hi, Thanks a lot Mini Sprocket.
For the display, some twisted cables and/or some "ground around them" (soory, I don't know the words for 'câble blindé', maybe sreen?) couldn't
stop the noise?
Thanks for the Rave, but it's done. Just some trouble, I thought it was only MPI (post '96), but there're also the schems for the SPI (Japan spec.)

It is a hobby for you, tuning your Mini, or a full time job??? I like your way to think about the twin ve tables.

About the flywheel patern, It should work full stock with vems (for a modified distributor ignition systèm)?

So I need to build a Vems for my own application (no coil driver, one injector to begin easy, Alpha/n+density) and to find a friend (my wife Laptop )

Thierry

Mini British Open II 1275 SPI Full Stock
working on SSpi project

Hi,
Rover MPi / SPi wiring diagram available from me for free
http://www.teamtorque.co.uk/pics/rave.zip
Cheers,
Gavin :)

Edited by Bat on 24th Sep, 2007.

VEMs Authorised Installer / Re-seller. K head kits now available!

WB/EGT gauges. Click here for customers write-up

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My Mini build diary

Damn you Mini Sprocket, your making me doubt my decision to go MS now...lol

Ive been looking at this..

http://shop.vems.hu/catalog/product_info.p...66bf1ae00fdb117

Does this include, everything i'd need to control injectors (drivers) and spark, and will it work with edis like MS as Ive already got that wired in for MJ?

Can you get away with using a narrow band sensor or does it have to be wideband?

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1/4mile in 13.2sec @ 111 terminal on 15psi

Thanks Gravin, I download it, it seeems to the same I already have, but I keep it, we never know!

Thierry

Mini British Open II 1275 SPI Full Stock
working on SSpi project

On 24th of Sep, 2007 at 09:11pm Bat said:
Hi,
Rover MPi / SPi wiring diagram available from me for free
http://www.teamtorque.co.uk/pics/rave.zip
Cheers,
Gavin :)

turbo 16v k-series 11.9@118.9 :)

Denis O'Brien.

Hi,
AFAIK that's all you need. All the parameters for the wideband can be changed in the tuning software, but I don't know if it will allow you to do that.
Havin said that the sensor is only £50 and when using learning mode it will map the car for you, so you'll save that much on RR time
Edis not required, connect crank sensor and coil pack straight into ECU, cam sensor too if you like.
Evolution ... It came from Roger I think, so it's getting around! Well done that man:)
Cheers,
Gavin :)

Edited by Bat on 24th Sep, 2007.

VEMs Authorised Installer / Re-seller. K head kits now available!

WB/EGT gauges. Click here for customers write-up

Visit www.doyouneedabrain.co.uk

My Mini build diary

Ah right if thats all you need then that price is VERY reasonable. If a wideband sensor is £50 even better! I was under the impression they were alot more than that.

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1/4mile in 13.2sec @ 111 terminal on 15psi

Hi,
£52 on the VEMS UK site, maybe a little cheaper on Ebay? A couple of years ago they were very expensive.
Cheers,
Gavin :)

VEMs Authorised Installer / Re-seller. K head kits now available!

WB/EGT gauges. Click here for customers write-up

Visit www.doyouneedabrain.co.uk

My Mini build diary

Also dont buy direct from the web shop, buy it from here http://www.vems.co.uk in the UK, Rob uses the same paypal secure transaction system that the web shop does, the prices are the same, but you purchased it in the UK

The ready built ECUs have everything except the knock, EGT chips (of which there are two) onboard MAP and the ignition drivers

There are 10 FET drivers, thats 2 for the dual chanel WBO2 and 8 for individual injectors (four plus four staged in sequential mode perhaps)

Primary crank trigger is VR and secondary cam trigger is HALL, option to change the secondary trigger to VR(Audi Trigger) (MPi cam sensor is VR) Dependant on aplication.

MAP sensor is OFF board, there is NO on board MAP, Option for onboard map Up to you (MPi is off board MAP).

Stepper chip, can be used for outputs if not used for stepper. Bipolar so Unipolar motors require modifying.

NO knock or EGT, Option for Knock and 1 or 2 EGT. I recomend the two EGT as its a good tuning aid and the tiny surface mount chips are a bastard to solder on youreslf!!!

Ignition is an option and needs to be decided, and chances are, unless you run a V8 with coil on plug you will only need to specify 4+4 or 2+6. the 2+6 gives you two drivers for a coil pack and 6 logic level (5v increadibly low current, its actualy the gates on the processor so VERY fragile. LED's??) You could go all out and fully populate the board with 8 drivers, you can use the remaining ones for various outputs. ( i havent yet run out of outputs with 8 injector drivers and 2 igntion drivers, i just wont go near the 6 logic level drivers, its too risky) You NEED 2+6 minimum. or zero if you still persist with EDIS or 8 logic level coil on plug, but its better to get at least the 2+6 anyway, this is not a recomendation, just do it!!.

There is a low current output chip that gives you six outputs for the likes of relays and shift lights.

So to sumarise

The things you need to choose

Knock + 1EGT or Knock +2EGT or None

I sugest you Select at least 2+6 for Ignition Driver, 4 if you really must.

Select low voltage flyback as the transient surpresion diode supplied in the rescue kit does an excellent job.

LCD option is required for the display but not neccisary if you dont want the display. I recommend you get this.

Primary trigger will be VR

Secondary trigger depends on your aplication, otherwise its Hall

Select Onboard MAP if thats what you want, otherwise buy an off board MAP sensor from the shop at the time of purchase

Dont bother about 1 wire interface, nobody has really done anything with it yet and information is less than limited!!

Mounting style is up to you

Dont bother with PS2



Other things to consider when ordering

The LCD, EC18 and EC36 connectors, the WBO2 connector is a must, I know of nowhere else that sells these!! and dont forget the WBO2 sensor, its not a bad price. Also unless you have the tool to crimp the terminals, get a krimp tool, you will be making these terminals off for time to come. Alternatively you can order the EC18 and EC36 with flying leads already crimped up.

Its all about personal prefference





Where MPi is mentioned it is for refference only, VEMS will not work with the siamese port injection. Yet.

Edited by Sprocket on 25th Sep, 2007.

Oh and the WBO2 needs to be calibrated to the ECU, the WBO2 NEEDS to be new when you do this!!

Just think, dual WBO2 and dual EGT, 8 sequential injection drivers. This board is just ready for Siamese port injection code!!!

hi there i am running an mpi mini with phase 3 cam(so no cam sensor)with eaton charger mounted on the mpi manifold using the 2 original injectors and 2 staged injectors further back in the manifold will the vems suit this installation better than the ms
many thanks

May be a stupid question but, whats the function of the secondary trigger? All I can see its going to measure is the cam speed, which is just half the speed of the engine?

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1/4mile in 13.2sec @ 111 terminal on 15psi